Dee-Nee Forums

And now, the post we've all been waiting for . . .
RELIEF PITCHERS!

Same Guidelines as Starting Pitchers.

I was thinking about separating it into Set-Up Man and Closer, but if that's what everyone wants, it will be evident enough in the voting since you have two votes.  In other words, if you want a #3 guy and a #4 guy, just vote for them.  If you are clueless, #3 will be the first, and every other guy after him.  The #4 will be everyone else.  Simple enough.

CORBET (R) - Ca
        0

MOORE (R) - Ca
        3

SCHIRALDI (R) - Bo
        1

STANLEY (R) - Bo
        0

HERNANDEZ (L) - Dt
        6

KING (R) - Dt
        0

BERENGUER (R) - Mn
        9

REARDON (R) - Mn
        0

KERFELD (R) - Ho
        0

SMITH (R) - Ho
        0

OROSCO (L) - NY
        11

McDOWELL (R) - NY
        0

DAYLEY (L) - SL
        0

WORRELL (R) - SL
        1

GARRELTS (R) - SF
        3

ROBINSON (R) - SF
        0



TOTAL VOTES
        34

Give me Orosco and Worrell.

Garrelts and Donnie Moore
Big Dad and Toe Tag

Orosco and Moore

Berenguer
Orosco

Berenguer and Garrelts

Bedrock deserves a mention since I think he's the best pitcher in the game, starter or reliever.

Hernandez - Best straight pitch closer in the game and not to shabby in curve.  

Berenguer - Senor Smoke, no better pitcher for a tough out.  Especially after a gassed starter...

A vote for Schiraldi?  Wow...

I'm surprised so many of you play against the computer.  I find that it fucks with my "A" game against live competition.

Hernandez and Berenguer.  These guys can log innings, and their stuff is great.

Orosco

Hernandez

Okay, I vote for Orosco and Hernandez.  Again, I love lefties in all aspects of RBI.

Orosco is a lefty and fuckin sidearm.  It doesn't get any bigger than that.

Hernandez is a relief pitcher version of my favorite pitcher, John Tudor.  So I had to vote for him.

Berenger and Garrelts and Dayley are all very close behind.  The first two throw fuckin pure gas.  Plain and simple.  If I could follow up Tudor with Berenger, it would be like the 96 Yankees all over again.  Dayley is kinda like Tudor and Hernandez.  Plus he's lefty and a Cardinal.  Gotta like that.

Gotta be Berenger and Orosco.

Berenger can hit 103 which is unmatched in relief pitchers and Orosco is by far the nastiest curve relief pitcher...His shit breaks like none other and he might as well live on the edge of the plate. I hate playing him.

I agree with Gantry.

Hernandez is unhittable and Berenguer is a stud.

DVLDOG-  Schraldi?!?!  By far the worst pitcher in RBI.  No excuse, not even argueable.

Definitely Hernandez.  Do I really need to pick a second one?  If I'm forced to, then I'd go with The Dead Guy, Donnie Moore.  Otherwise, I will avoid all other relief pitchers...

Orosoco and Berenguer.
Obviously Jesse is my number 1 boy.
Juan will balance him out with the righty heat!

Guys, in our curve pitched games there are few pitchers that get shelled more than Juan Berenger.  When he comes in you know the heater is coming so you just dial up your swing for it.  His lack of curve makes it impossible to throw a ball unless you go all the way to one side on the mound (which makes the pitch very easy to read).  I know he throws it 103 mph, but that number is meaningless in terms of actual RBI performance.  A pitcher needs some semblence of a curve ball to be effective in curve pitch style RBI.

GDavis makes a great point.  With the guys who throw gas, you know what's coming.  But Berenger isn't terrible if you bring him in after Viola or I guess even Blyleven.  It's a change of pace and will throw off your opponent ever so slightly.

Personally, I'm not a fan of relievers.  Most teams, the second starter is better for long relief. I guess if a fireballer is in the pen, he's OK for a one inning change of pace.

Using two starters in a game is a cardinal sin.  Not allowed.  A full beer must be consumed even if it was a true accident.  Also, if said accident did occur, the pitcher must come out immediately.

Even in curve I like Senor Smoke.  Just because you know the heater is coming doesn't mean you can hit it.  Mix up normal pitches and a heater.  Keeps the hitter on his toes...

I agree he starts to predictable, but he's the best guy to have when you need an out and the previous pitcher is slow...

I have to agree with Gantry... Berenguer can be absolutely sick if you mix up his fastball with drops and regular speed pitches.  Obviously if you throw nothing but 103mph heat he will get shelled.  But mix it up enough and the batter will be late on the fastball everytime.  In my experience, Henke and Worrell suffer much more from the problem of hitters sitting on fastballs than Berenguer does... I think his extra 3-5 mph give him a huge advantage.

#1 Orosco
#2 Berenguer

Uncle Jesse and Senor Smoke

I think everybody else has pretty much covered the reasons.  I do have to give some love to Schraldi though.  If we picked that many he would definitely be my #3.

Orosco & Garrelts.

IMHO Hernandez & Donnie Moore are horrible in cruve style. I can NOT bring in either of them to close out a game. I use them to get one or two batters out in the 7th or 8th & cross my fingers that they don't do too much harm.

Guiliermo has a decent FB, but not special, & no drop rating (3)! Maybe you're giving it to him on the intimidating ERA?

The exact same can be said about Donnie Moore. I mean his drop rating is a 2! Donnie's curves are 4 & 2! I know you straight ballers don't use this often, but can't you find a candidate that is at least decent in curve style? Maybe they're getting votes because they're on popular hitting teams?

As for my votes, my friend picks the Mets often enough for me to know how nasty Orosco is.

I'm shocked at the low support for Garrelts. Rating wise he has the second best FB speed, drop rating, & drop speed among all relievers. What else can you ask for? I urge all those who have left him off to reconsider!

Mike

Quote from: Glassjoe on 12/12/03, 11:20:40 AM
Marquis:  I am strictly a curve ball player, and I couldn't disagree with you more in regard to Hernandez.  I think he's a sweet RP.  He can nibble the corner all day long and he has enough zip on his fastball to cross a few batters up.

I'd also say that Garrelts decent, but certainly not top notch.  He's good for an inning, tops, and then he sucks.

Do you play with four pitchers?  If so, that might be the difference---my circle plays with 3 (only 1 SP)...so fatigue is an important factor (also why we tend to throw few drop balls...perhaps that's another reason we differ so greatly in opinion on this matter).

Sometimes we do 3, sometimes 4, but I always try to do 3. I'm very good at keeping my pitcher's stamina up. I save the drop balls for their best hitters, or tough situations. I'll give up meat balls to the bad hitters & let my defense do the work. My starters are usually around until late in the game.

When I use Detroit, everytime I use Hernandez, he gets rocked. I wasn't surprised that his stats aren't all that good. Looking at him compared to Garrelts:

Garrelts FB is 210, to Hernandez's 198, his curve (regular) speed pitch is 173 to 160, and his sinker is 173! to 146. If you can "sneak" Hernandez's FB past a hitter, then Garrelts must be able to blow them away, no? Hernandez has the second slowest curve speed pitch (after gulp Stanley). Hell even his splooge is faster than Hernandez' regular pitch.

Speaking of splooge, his drop is at 10, where Hernandez is at 3 which is dangerous territory to use.

Hernandez does have a better curve, (6-3 to 5-2), but it's below average for a LH reliever (Orosco, Dayley, & Righetti are better, Franco is worse!)

As for stamina, they are both the same.

So who would you rather be facing with two strikes? Garrelts who can throw a 100MPH FB or a very fast sinker that will likely drop or Hernandez with his at best average speed/curve? I really think people feel Hernandez is better because with Det you often have a 4/5 run lead by the time he comes in, and his ERA is posted at 1.11. Ken Dayley has better ratings than him.

Mike

Opposite of batter probably 90% of the time.  But stuff like that can only be decided in the game in that situation.  That's the great thing about RBI.  We can be as hypothetical all we want but it doesn't really matter until the game is actually being played.

By the way, I gave Dayley an honorable mention vote.

The reason why pitchers like Garrelts and Hernandez are tough is because of the disparity between their curve (aka regular pitch) and fastball.  In straight pitch, both these guys keep you on your toes because you are looking for one or the other.  If you've seen a couple regular pitches and get a fastball, it's tough to time.  In fact, Hernandez is probably the most prolific straight-pitch strikeout pitcher.  If you are looking fastball and he comes with a curve, you swing way too early...

Both are bastards in straight pitch, you never want to see either of these guys during the course of a game...