Great ESPN article talking about Jim RBI Rice...the greatest living RBI hitter IMO.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2268868
Quote from: japetus462 on 12/28/05, 10:23:23 AM
Great ESPN article talking about Jim RBI Rice...the greatest living RBI hitter if you assassinate Reggie Jackson, Mark McGwire, and about a half-dozen other guys.
I hope Rice gets in. He's a snappy dresser now.
"CLOSE CALLS
• Here are the five returning players who came the closest to Hall of Fame election in 2005. Players needed 387, or 75 percent, of the 516 votes cast.
PLAYER VOTES PERCENT
Bruce Sutter 344 66.7
Jim Rice 307 59.5
Rich Gossage 285 55.2
Andre Dawson 270 52.3
Bert Blyleven 211 40.9 "
Senior Smoke is very under rated.
Quote from: BeefMaster on 12/28/05, 10:28:21 AM
Quote from: japetus462 on 12/28/05, 10:23:23 AM
Great ESPN article talking about Jim RBI Rice...the greatest living RBI hitter if you assassinate Reggie Jackson, Mark McGwire, and about a half-dozen other guys.
With all due respect to Reggie, and the rest....If it's bottom 9th..2 outs...and I need a run...it's Rice for me all the way.
Mike Schmidt
Wow, that's a pretty compelling argument for Rice in the HOF. He dominated the AL for a 12 year period. He and Blyleven should definitely be in, and it's a tradegy that Bertus isn't in yet...
I think Japetus is talking about in the game itself, not in "real life"
He better get in.
Quote from: Mike D. on 12/28/05, 10:57:28 AM
(http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/5/53/222px-C-homer.png)
I think he's talking about real life (which actually makes more sense than in the game, because Rice probably doesn't make the top 10 in the game)... I was mostly making a BDawk-ian attempt to be funny.
Rice has been hurt by the recent SABRmetric boom - for some reason (I think because he didn't draw a ton of walks like some sluggers), his numbers don't stack up all that well to a lot of Hall of Famers. He also hit into a ridiculous number of double plays, although I don't know how much that factors into it.
Weird stat I just noticed while looking up his numbers: Every player with more career GIDPs than Rice is in the Hall of Fame, except career leader Cal Ripken, who certainly will be (if there isn't already a Hall of Shame entry for Ripken, that'd be a good one). Julio Franco ranks 7th, right behind Rice, and Harold Baines is 8th. That is a good stat for RBIers, apparently.
I go back and forth on whether he, Dawson, Murphy, and Jack Morris should make the Hall, but right now, I'm leaning toward "Yes" for all of them except maybe Murphy. Whether Rice was or wasn't the greatest player in the league isn't necessarily the most important thing, nor is Morris's 3.90 ERA - it's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Greatness, and these guys' reputations and (for Morris) big-game performances are enough to count for a boost to their stats. Football has it right - Joe Namath and Lynn Swann weren't statistically great players, but they deserve their spots in Canton.
I just checked the HoS Page (http://dee-nee.com/rbi/hallofshame.shtml), and while Ripken already has an entry, the career GIDP record would be a find addition. The fact that Rice has the single-season record of 36(and the #2 single-season total, 35) would also be a good addition to his entry; I thought it was already there for some reason.
Nice catch Beef, added the GIDP records for Ripken and Rice. Two updates in a day, I'm on fire!
For the record..I was talking about the game. :)
Quote from: Gantry on 12/28/05, 11:05:04 AM
Quote from: Mike D. on 12/28/05, 10:57:28 AM
(http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/5/53/222px-C-homer.png)
Maybe I am a bit of a homer, but he did indeed dominate the AL for over 10 years. His not so good relationship with the liberal media had something to do with it.
fkn liberal media...
Fnk Onion
Quote from: BDawk on 12/28/05, 01:01:52 PM
Fnk Onion
(http://bluestormmusic.com/store/images/products/botmggron180.jpg)
Quote from: japetus462 on 12/28/05, 10:23:23 AM
Jim RBI Rice...the greatest living RBI hitter IMO.
IMO, Donnie Moore is the greatest dead hitter in RBI.
Does Gene Mauch count? If so, I put him over Moore...
Mike, you're not a homer. Rice is a hall of famer. He was feared. He was an MVP. He loved porn.
Seriously I knew this shit would happen. The stat geeks, nerds, and dweebs would pick apart every star player from the 80s because their OPSKDLSIHHASLASKDFLJ% wasn't to their liking.
I say there should be some way for actual players to vote on the hall of fame. I'd imagine many of the writers wouldn't know Jim Rice if he walked up and bit them on the ass.
The BBWA can lick my chode. I hate them.
I assume the stat heads will say Tony Gwynn is not a HoF'er because his high OBP was direclty related to his high batting average, blah blah blah blah blah blah.
Damn, I sound like Dusty Baker.
Time to go kill myself.
Quote from: Ryno on 12/28/05, 07:01:42 PM
I say there should be some way for actual players to vote on the hall of fame. I'd imagine many of the writers wouldn't know Jim Rice if he walked up and bit them on the ass.
Yeah, they need some sort of committee, they could call it a "Veterans Committee" or something like that.
In no way is Jim Rice a hall of famer. But he will be once the Veterans Committee votes.
Theres this tall old black dude that shops at my supermarket, I refer to him as Jim Rice.
He can barely walk, I feel bad for him. He was such an athlete at one time.
Is it Ron Santo?
I once got my picture taken with an old black dude wearing a Jets Keyshawn Johnson jersey, it was my friend's cell phone wallpaper for the longest time.
Also, as for Jim Rice.
Career numbers, he's only in the top 50 in GIDP, Sac Flies (which is how Frank Thomas will get in), and Strike outs.
NOT a hall of famer. If he makes the hall of fame, may as well put Bernie Williams in as well.
Quote from: Attezzobal on 12/29/05, 02:07:29 AM
Also, as for Jim Rice.
Career numbers, he's only in the top 50 in GIDP, Sac Flies (which is how Frank Thomas will get in), and Strike outs.
NOT a hall of famer. If he makes the hall of fame, may as well put Bernie Williams in as well.
Now, let's not start saying things we can't take back.
Quote from: Attezzobal on 12/29/05, 01:46:56 AM
Quote from: Ryno on 12/28/05, 07:01:42 PM
I say there should be some way for actual players to vote on the hall of fame. I'd imagine many of the writers wouldn't know Jim Rice if he walked up and bit them on the ass.
Yeah, they need some sort of committee, they could call it a "Veterans Committee" or something like that.
In no way is Jim Rice a hall of famer. But he will be once the Veterans Committee votes.
The vet committee is kinda quirky, don't you think? They only vote every two years and not all members participate. Hell, they have jack asses like Schmidt whose gone on record as saying if the writers didn't vote 'em in, why should he.
My issue with the veterans committee would be that not all of the living HOFers played against those players on the ballot.
Not all HOF hitters faced sutter and gossage. Not all pitchers faced Rice.
It would be really difficult to get a proper group of players to vote, but it's a nice thought any way.
Quote from: Attezzobal on 12/29/05, 02:07:29 AM
Also, as for Jim Rice.
Career numbers, he's only in the top 50 in GIDP, Sac Flies (which is how Frank Thomas will get in), and Strike outs.
NOT a hall of famer. If he makes the hall of fame, may as well put Bernie Williams in as well.
Bernie Williams? That's a bit of a stretch.
What hurts rice is his lack of a lengthy career.
Look at the list of baseball reference comparables:
Cepeda HOF
Gallaraga
Burks
Snider HOF
J Carter
D Parker
Billy Williams HOF
Luis Gonzales
Willie Stargell HOF
Sheffield
Not bad company.
I'm not one who buys into the "short career" mentality. I've heard it from both ends. I can't understand how the HoF voters say Pucket was a no-brainer, but then say Rice didn't have a long enough career.
For argument's sake (re: puckett), Kirby had 2 HOFers (Cuyler and Medwick) in his BR comparables list.
The stat I like to look at is 162 game average. . . . Rice was at .298 / 30 /113 . . . . he was the perfect clean up hitter during his time.
Rice is in the all time MLB top 100 in the following categories:
slg% 88th
Hits 91st
Total Bases 61st
HR 51st
RBI 51st
K's 49th
Runs Created 76th
Ex Base Hits 74th
Sac Flies 41st
GIDP 6th
Those are some nice categories to be in the top 100 all time.
Quote from: Ryno on 12/29/05, 12:42:52 PM
Cepeda HOF
Gallaraga
Burks
Snider HOF
J Carter
D Parker
Billy Williams HOF
Luis Gonzales
Willie Stargell HOF
Sheffield
Not bad company.
But not great company either.
So, as for the Vets committee, what you actually want is for the only players allowed to vote are the players that will put Jim Rice in? Maybe we'll only have American Leaguers vote for fellow American Leaguers, and NLers do the same for NLers. Wait, no, that would never work. Let's only have players vote for fellow players that they've played against 200 times. Wait, no, that wouldn't work either. Let's have hitters with at least 100 career at bats against pitchers vote for or against those pitchers, and pitchers who have faced a hitter at least 100 times vote for or against those hitters. Yes, that seems the way to go.
Who have you ever heard say that Puckett was a no-brainer?
If Jim Rice gets in, Fred McGriff gets in.
Quote from: Attezzobal on 12/29/05, 12:51:13 PM
Who have you ever heard say that Puckett was a no-brainer?
Kirby's mom
Quote from: BDawk on 12/29/05, 01:00:51 PM
Quote from: Attezzobal on 12/29/05, 12:51:13 PM
Who have you ever heard say that Puckett was a no-brainer?
Kirby's mom
The bitch who was duct taped in his closet.
When you get in first ballot, aren't you generally considered a no-brainer
I've read articles where well known sports writers called Puckett a no-brainer. I only remember them because I thought it was ridiculous.
Also, I've never understood why fans get so worked up over the HofF or postseason awards. They're made for the players, and they really shouldn't affect a fan either way. I'm much more interested in whose numbers get retired than who wins mvp or gets in the hall, because it's something I see everytime I go to a game. If some assclown is wearing number 51 in St. Louis, the fans get upset. At the same time, most people don't know/care exactly which Cards are in the Hall of Fame.
Quote from: Attezzobal on 12/29/05, 12:51:13 PM
So, as for the Vets committee, what you actually want is for the only players allowed to vote are the players that will put Jim Rice in? Maybe we'll only have American Leaguers vote for fellow American Leaguers, and NLers do the same for NLers. Wait, no, that would never work. Let's only have players vote for fellow players that they've played against 200 times. Wait, no, that wouldn't work either. Let's have hitters with at least 100 career at bats against pitchers vote for or against those pitchers, and pitchers who have faced a hitter at least 100 times vote for or against those hitters. Yes, that seems the way to go.
Who have you ever heard say that Puckett was a no-brainer?
If Jim Rice gets in, Fred McGriff gets in.
Pucket went in 1st ballot (I think). That's no - brainer to me.
I think it would be cool to have the players who played against the certain players do the voting. I just find it strange that a baseball writer who may never have seen Rice (or others) play gets to vote on his Hall of Fame worthiness. The players shouldn't have the absolute say (simply because of the "good ol' boy system") but I'd love to see a happy medium.
I really couldn't give a shit about Jim Rice, but I know if I were in his shoes, I'd be pissed to high heaven at some of the guys that are in and I (Rice) can barely get half the vote.
Just looking at his BR page, the HOF monitor type stats have Rice as a HOF.
The only assclown that should wear a cardinal "51" is Willie McGee.
Are there many teams that have their own Halls of Fame? The Twins started the Twins Hall of Fame in 2000 or 2001, initially enshrining the 5 players with retired numbers (Killebrew, Oliva, Carew, Puckett, Hrbek), and adding a player or two each year (I was at the game last year when Viola was added).
Interestingly, since they started the Twins Hall of Fame, they haven't retired any numbers (not that there were probably any deserving players who played predominately during the 90s).
I think teams retire numbers too easily. They should be reserved for hall of famers that play the vast majority of their games for that team, or great players that played the vast majority of games for that team. I see a Dwight Evans getting his number retired. He meant a lot to that organization, but will never get to the hall.