I was reading through the team breakdowns the other day and noticed that there is no mention of the Giants pitching staff. Its a shame too because I'm starting to think they might have the best on in RBI.
Krukow has really good movement 12/7 and a great sinker (second only to Scott). Some consider him the best in the game.
Reuschel has a very good drop and excellent (maybe the best) movement in the game. I think hes a 10 and 9 in right/left. I cant think of another pitcher who can move the ball so well both ways.
Garrets has a top tier heater and a good sink. Granted his movement is poor but you cant have everything. He is still a very usable pitcher
Robinson has decent heat and some nice movement and sink. He doesnt have anything special but he has the stuff to get outs. Probably as good a closer as any in RBI
SF does have some pitfalls. The combined staf has only 100 in endurance which is tied for lowest in the game. That sucks big time. They also lack a lefty which is definently a bad thing. Still I think (just like in real baseball) people overplay the left v righty thing in terms of matchups. I think good pitchers get outs. SF has four of them.
Overall I think SF has the best overall staff in RBI. I invite all detractors to describe a better staff.
Scott:
Good anlysis on the SF staff. I'm a big fan of both Krukow on Big Daddy. That writieup is ancient and one of th next things to go on the site. Most of the potsie writeups are incomplete and a good 4 years old now...
Quote from: GreatScott on 05/20/04, 11:03:24 AM
They also lack a lefty which is definently a bad thing. Still I think (just like in real baseball) people overplay the left v righty thing in terms of matchups. I think good pitchers get outs.
GScott...what style of RBI do you play? Speaking as a curve player, I disagree with you pretty staunchly on this one. I think an average lefty is as good as a good righty--in curve. The reason is simple; in curve, it is much easier to hit off of a pitcher who is the same hand as the batter--and there are a ton more righty batters than lefty batters. So by default, pitching lefty is better because of the many righty batters that you get to face.
I think this is huge. For example, Viola is probably considered an average lefty...but I think he pitches as well as, if not better than, Gooden--a "good" righty.
SF does have a great staff, but I live and die by lefties. You gotta have one. This fact kills them.
Krukow does have a nasty drop, but I find it to be far too inconsistent. Chubbs routinely tees off on the floaters.
Big Daddy is great simply because he was a giant fat ass. I don't think he really does anything spectacular, but he does get the job done.
Garrelts is nothing but heat, which is a good contrast coming immediately after Krukow. But after two batters, the opponent usually catches on. I will say he has one of the better drops among the relievers when he's on. Unfortunately, like Krukow, I find his drop to be there one minute and gone (literally) the next.
Robinson is a sack.
I would take Detroit, Boston or California over San Fran's pitching staff.
Boston huh. Im sorry but thats crazy. Sure Clemens is good but the rest suck. Dont tell me Hurst is effective because hes a lefty. Hes got a decent drop but very little movement. Translation: BUM. Im not even gonna comment on Stanly ... let alone the worst of the worst; Calvin Schiraldi.
Detriot is also totally weak. Alexander is decent, Morris is poor. Hernandez sucks ass (i dont care that hes a lefty) and King is equally lame. Totally overblown power stats is what makes that team effective. if they give up less runs its because Detriot tends to blow teams awy in less than 9.
California has the best staff stamina but they just dont have the stuff. Just compare their numbers with the SF staff. They dont have nearly the same movement or drop. + they have no lefty !!! Top win games that staff needs Reggie like no other.
Furthermore even if the whole lefty v righty match-up stuff was crucial ... your argument still wouldnt hold water. Take a look at the lineups of all the teams. Most of them are pretty evenly split or mostly lefty once all subs are used. Houston and STL are almost all lefty ... and you can walk their righties (who are incidentally their power hitters) if it really bothers you. California, New York and Detriot are mostly lefty ... so i dont see the problem there either. That leaves Boston and Minnesota. Yes they are predominently righty so I guess they would match up well.
Read next box
What is true of RBI is that most pitchers are righty. Only STL and NY have a split squad but neither team is considered that good by die hard RBIers. Why? Because they cant hit and having two lefties means dick. Good pitchers are just like good hitters. Their stats do the talking. Which hand they play with is not that important. If it were, everyone would be Boston or Min to take advantage of the constant righty righty pitching match up. Conversely nobody would be Detriot or Cali because they are so lefty dominated and would get schooled by righties. but people do because those teams have the most power and can score. San Fran has the staff with the best stuff. lacking a righty is just not that important
lacking a lefty rather
That's just your opinion...I do not agree with it.
How do you play, GScott? Curve, straight, slurve...?
Also, you are incorrect about a lot of things you said. For one, curve players do often take Bos bc they have a lot of righties...not just bc they are powerful. I am positive I can stimey Boston's roster with Tudor or Ojeda...I might not win every game, but I will in large part factor out their excessive righty power...
i play anything goes pitching. you can do whatever you want with the ball any pitch. dont know the technical rbi term for that but thats what i play.
I agree with GreatScott, in that I don't get very caught up in what way a pitcher throws.
I'm suprised at how most curve players prefer left handed pitcher for a right handed hitter.
Quote from: ultimate7 on 05/21/04, 12:35:41 PM
I'm suprised at how most curve players prefer left handed pitcher for a right handed hitter.
Trust me--you'll find out in about a month (COTUT)! :)
GScott--where are you located and are you considering the COTUT (Championship of the Universe Tournament)???
Here's a link, in case this is the first you've heard of it:
www.rbibaseballcotut.com/
i live in ny so its not really possible. Id love to play some hard core RBI because all my friends suck at it aruond here. Im up for net play ... and proving that pitching stuff supercedes left/right.
I'm so bored at work that I'm looking at all these super old posts. You guys are right - pretty much everything RBI has been covered.
Anyways, I think Houston has the best staff - curve, slurve, straight, whatever. Ryan is dominant, Scott is good and Kerfield, to me, is the best reliever in the game. Those three alone make them the best, I think the closer spot is traditionally weak, but Smith is ok. St. Louis might get my vote for second best staff. In slurve, Tudor is brilliant.
I agree with JoeDirt completely.. as a curve only player, I feel you cannot overestimate the importance of knowing and using righty/lefty matchups... Which staff you feel is the best I think is totally preference, and my preference is St Louis... Tudor is murderous in curve... Also for those of you skeptical of the advantage of an opposite handed pitcher, look no further than when your pitcher begins to tire... a tired pitcher can still K/Jam an opposite hitting batter, but has virtually no chance against a same hand batter.. I'll go as far as to say this: when my buddy is california, and since he pinch hits with Jones for Pettis, i actually start Worrell instead of Tudor... I do this because I know i can get 1 solid inning out of him, and I like the righty going against Jones/Joyner/Jackson.. (and just being careful with Doug D) I like this better than having to use Worrell later in the game, and not knowing what part of the lineup he will face.. Altho they are FAR inferior, I would rather not have Worrell face Grich, Hendreck and Boone/Burelson, all righties... It is true that the top pitchers get outs no matter what, however when you get to the middle tier guys, the advantage of being able to go L/R (which Worrell and Dayley give you, although I don't trust either of them too much) is enormous... that is why San Fran in my mind cannot be the top staff in curve-style..
Great analysis Ozzie, good to luck this curve stuff...
Just so I understand - is the key to opposite-handed pitchers in your opinon is that it's easier to break the ball outside? In straight it's best to pitch outside, is this generally true in curve as well?
I believe the opposite pitcher/batter theory is that you pitch outside and try to double curve the pitch so that it just nips the outside corner (start on the outside of the mound)
So outside is the key for you ultimate, which confuses me about righty/lefty pitching matchups. Doesn't a pitcher like Tudor have a better break towards the left (left as in the left of the TV) and if so wouldn't he match up better with lefties?
Quote from: Gantry on 08/09/04, 12:03:04 PM
So outside is the key for you ultimate, which confuses me about righty/lefty pitching matchups. Doesn't a pitcher like Tudor have a better break towards the left (left as in the left of the TV) and if so wouldn't he match up better with lefties?
For me, Tudor's ball breaks best over the left side of the plate, away from a lefty and onto a rightie's hands. He can put the ball just out of reach of Reggie and Ruppert and jams the shit out of DeC and Downing and Hendrick.
Tudor is the fucking man.
I actually don't use this method much, smokedubad and JoeDirt could give better detail.
Yes, Tudor's best break is away from a Lefty batter (left on the TV), and personally I like to take pitchers with strong curve and pitch against same handed batters (Righty/Righty).
But Tudor has enough Right curve to take the pitch and move it just back across the corner. The path of their pitches move just slightly outside and then just slightly across the corner (Or not) but from a hitter's standpoint it is tough to tell if they will bring the pitch back. So you don't know strike/ball and often even if it is a strike, it is difficult to hit hard.
I play curve style and I think left handers can be a bonus however if a pitcher has good movement to both sides I think you can do well. I for one love it when a pitcher has good stamina along with the good movement like gooden. The best is when your pitcher can start a pitch outside then bring it back for a strike. That pitch can really piss off your buddies. Another thing i noticed is i don't do as well with soem of the lefties in the game that can't bring the ball back to the other side of their normal movement like viola. I mean most can bring the aball back some but not nearly as well as most right handers. But fernando can be just a brutal curve slinger.
I can attest to that, vit & I played a shortened game and I couldn't get anything when Fernando was in. had that nasty "pitch outside, then curve for a strike at the last second" thing going...
Here was the main issue I was referring to before... When a pitcher begins to tire, I find the first thing that goes is his ability to "re-curve", or move the ball in 2 directions, as has been discussed... so this leaves you with a one time, most likely late, breaking ball.. i PREFER to throw this on the outside corner against an opposite handed batter... for instance, if I have Tudor going against Grich, I throw it on the right side of the plate, and maybe/maybe not cut that corner at the last second... the DIFFERENCE lies in the fact that if it were a lefty at the plate, this same pitch would be on the inside corner... while it may still be effective occasionaly, the batter doesn't necessarily have to read the ball/strike correctly to hit it... against a righty, he absolutely has to be correct on the ball/strike call... now some people may counter with the fact that you can throw that big swooping curve against the hitter were he a lefty, in this example with Tudor, it would start all the way to the right and (ideally) cut outside just out of the lefty's reach... HOWEVER, think about how much more effect this would be against a righty, especially after throwing a series of those outside corner pitches I referred to earlier?? I mean, i know this is my preference, but I really feel like your options are better with a L/R or R/L match-up, and you have a lesser likelihood to leave a ball in a hittable position... for those of you that disagree, please explain (not sarcastic here, just literally curious) why you feel that a tiring ace or a middle tier guy has more options in the R/R or L/L situation... i add that caveat of tiring ace because, pitching with a fresh Tudor/Gooden/etc is like being a kid in a candy store... you've got more options than you know what to do with, and there is no "wrong" way to strike somebody out, which is about all those guys do for the first 3-5 innings...
on a sidenote, since the real life Cards are playing so well, I'm getting more than my fair share of '87 Cards references on ESPN/Baseball Tonight/ESPN News... even a few talks about how fast they were on the basepaths... to which all i can say is, "damn straight"
First off, I'm amazed that in this "day and age," I'm reading about detailed pitching strategies of RBI Baseball, circa 1987. I applaude this entire group!
Secondly, Ozzie is right, in my opinion. To simplify it as much as possible, if I'm Tudor and you are Trammell, I can start the ball outside and at the last second, nip the outer half of the outer half of the plate. If I see you activate the launch sequence (start your swing), I still have time to not nip that corner--causing you to "reach" for the ball and likely producing a ground out. If I don't see you start your swing, I'll nip the corner.
If I nip the corner and you swing, the ball still hits the outer part of your bat. Now, you can certainly still drive the ball, but it's not as likely. If I keep you honest and bust you inside every now and again, you can't sit on that outside curve--and I'm likely to get you.
However, if I'm Tudor and you're Reggie, I have problems because I can't play this game. Tudor's outside curve to Reggie has to start the ball over the plate and curve it off the plate--if I make a mistake, the ball is hanging over the plate for you to mash. If I go inside often, you can back up and hit the ball with any part of the bat. BUT, if I am able to go outside often, you're best guess will still net only solid contact with the end of the bat.
Well said JoeDirt, although I too tried to make it as simple as possible... I guess it's just tough to illustrate our point without watching the pitching combinations we are talking about... But do you understand the other side to this issue? Why would one ever choose R/R or L/L if given the choice?? And kudos for mastering that use of the split second where you realize the batter is going to swing, that takes some time... Impressive!
For the record JoeD took fourth at the recent COTUT tourney in chicago while his longtime playing partner took 1st. He very well may have been one pitch to Keith Hernandez away from the finals...
I have a lot to learn in curve..
Shit, and I thought slurve took mastering.
JoeD can adjust a pitch at the drop of a hat. Very impressive.
I've always found the double-curve/nip the corner an OK strategy, but it leaves you wide open to power hitters if you mess up even a little or the pitcher gets even a little tired.
So screw that -- I've always had the best luck just trying to jam all the lefty hitters with right-handed pitching. Start at the far left, and throw a pitch with an amount of curve TBA. You can either go massively inside, which will be a weak hit every time if they don't swing and miss entirely. About a third of the time, try to nip the outside corner or just leave the ball hanging over the outside of the plate. If you see they're waiting on certain pitches, just do the opposite a few times.
Basically, if you can keep them guessing as to what part of the plate the pitch will be, it's maddening, and even a good hitter can't get in any kind of rhythm or figure out your patterns. It's all a mind game.
Quote from: capt_taco on 08/10/04, 04:43:01 AM
I've always found the double-curve/nip the corner an OK strategy, but it leaves you wide open to power hitters if you mess up even a little or the pitcher gets even a little tired.
I don't understand what you mean by this. If you make sure to miss outside, it's not hitable--and if it is hitable, it's often a "reach" hit and results in a weak ground out. If you don't miss, it's a great pitch. It's easy to not miss right down the middle...
QuoteSo screw that -- I've always had the best luck just trying to jam all the lefty hitters with right-handed pitching. Start at the far left, and throw a pitch with an amount of curve TBA.
Wow, this seems incredibly risky. Why wouldn't I, as the batter, just sit on one location and mash it when it comes up? I only have to hit the ball once per at bat...
QuoteYou can either go massively inside, which will be a weak hit every time if they don't swing and miss entirely.
Unless they just take the pitch--which most at the COTUT would, almost everytime.
Quote from: Gantry on 08/10/04, 12:02:02 AM
For the record JoeD took fourth at the recent COTUT tourney in chicago while his longtime playing partner took 1st. He very well may have been one pitch to Keith Hernandez away from the finals...
Yeah, I'm still steaming mad about that...I was really disappointed at the COTUT...I didn't have my "A" game. Really, I think I let the excitement of the COTUT build up for months before it actually took place--too much for me to handle! :)
But I was really happy to see my boy Riley win it. I guess it was also sort of a backward compliment to me, as he and I usually go back and forth on who wins...
Not to mention you have a year under your belt, you know what to expect...
Great discussion all around everyone, keep it going
When it comes to slurve the strategy differs greatly. I could be mistaken, but I assume strikeouts are commonplace or at least occur in curve? In slurve I just try and get my opponent to hit the ball on the ground. I guess the best way of putting it is "damage control."
Every pitch has to be a strike, so high-scoring games are very normal. But sometimes Chubbs and I will have a 2-1 nail biter. It's rare and it usually occurs long before we're tanked, but it happens.
When playing "true" curve (no penalty if it's not a strike), I always remember that strikeouts were fairly common, but far more common were weak hits and pop-ups caused by getting jammed or hitting the ball off the end of the bat. If you don't know whether the next pitch is going to be anywhere near the strike zone or not, or which side its going to, it's hard to be prepared. It's even possible to come up cursing when you get a pitch right down the middle and foul it off because you thought it was going inside.
Slurve style was always much easier for me to hit in, since it basically takes several options off the table for the pitcher. Far fewer mind games are possible.