Ok...I'm sure this was covered before at some point, but I'm extremely bored at work today and got to thinking about the All Star teams. After looking them over, they hold up quite well over the years...with the only real WTF inclusions being Shroeder and Pedrique. So, my question is, if you could timewarp back to '87, what teams would you have picked. I did my best to align my teams with the following criteria (trying to improve on the RBI standards as ridiculous as that may sound):
1) no more than 3 players off a given team (which meant excluding Eckersly, Sutcliffe, and Dunston to name a few)
2) every team has to have a representative
3) the players had to have been pretty good as of the '87 season - which sadly disqualified Bo Jackson
4) Both Starting pitchers could not be from the same team (hence, no Stieb/Key or Valenzula/Herscheiser combos) and one had to be RH and one to be LH
Anyway, here are the teams the way the should have been:
AL
Rickey Henderson Oak OF
Don Mattingly NY 1B
George Bell Tor OF
Jose Canseco Oak OF
Cal Ripken Bal SS
Carlton Fisk Chi C
George Brett KC 3B
Harold Reynolds Sea 2B
Robin Yount Mil B
Ruben Sierra Tex B
Mark McGwire Oak B
Julio Franco Cle B
Dave Stieb Tor SP-R
Mark Langston Sea SP-L
Dave Righetti NY RP
Tom Henke Tor RP
NL
Tim Raines Mon OF
Ryne Sandberg Chi 2B
Andre Dawson Chi OF
Dale Murphy Atl OF
Mike Schmidt Phi 3B
Andres Gallaraga Mon 1B
Benito Santiago SD C
Barry Larkin Cin SS
Barry Bonds Pit B
Steve Sax LA B
Tony Gwynn SD B
Pedro Guerrero LA B
Fernando Valenzula LA SP-L
Dennis Martinez Mon SP-R
Steve Bedrosian Phi RP
Lee Smith Chi RP
Great thread Shooty! I don't think it's even been covered before. A few comments after a quick trip to baseballreference:
1) No Bonds, .261 with 25 dingers in 1987. If his name wasn't Barry Bonds, people wouldn't put him on this list. And in 1987 that name didn't mean much...
2) Juan Samuel deserves to be on there - .272, 28 HRs, 100 RBIs, 35 steals in 1987. Led the league in ABs and extra base hits
3) There's gotta be someone better than Gallaraga but I can't find one.
Quick links:
http://baseballreference.com/leagues/NL_1987_t.shtml
http://baseballreference.com/leagues/AL_1987_t.shtml
Tim Wallach should be on the team
Gantry...agreed, Bonds was not the name player he is today, but what Pirate would you replace him with? And don't say Al Pedrique. Look at their roster...they sucked.
And while Gallaraga isn't an ideal option, the NL didn't have an abundance of top quality 1Bers at the time (apart from Jack Clark and Keith Hernandez).
Juan Samuel is a good call. Maybe he could have been a bench player over Pedro or Steve Sax.
BDawk. I consider Wallack but a) Schmidt was better and b) he didn't make it as a bench player because there were already 3 Expos on the team.
On a side note, it was a very difficult decision putting the best hitter of my generation on the pines (Gwynn).
Notable regrets (apart from the ones cut from the team): Winfield, Gossage, Dunston, Sutcliffe, Wallach, Barfield, Murray, Hough
Andy Van Slyke?
I wasn't thinking about putting a player from each time on the All-Star team. Do the original all-star teams have one player from each RBI team? This would solve the mystery of Al Pedrique...
Granted...Andy Van Slyke is a valid option instead of Bonds.
The NL did indeed have one representaive from each team.
However, the AL did not have anyone from Texas or Seattle. I always felt this was a big oversite on their part.
1987 NL All-Star Lineup
*Steve Bedrosian
Hubie Brooks
-Gary Carter
-Jack Clark
*Eric Davis
*Andre Dawson
Bo Diaz
Sid Fernandez
*John Franco
*Pedro Guerrero
*Tony Gwynn
-Keith Hernandez
Orel Hershiser
-Jeffrey Leonard
-Willie McGee
*Dale Murphy
*Tim Raines
-Rick Reuschel
Juan Samuel
*Ryne Sandberg
*Mike Schmidt
-Mike Scott
Lee Smith
-Ozzie Smith
-Darryl Strawberry
*Rick Sutcliffe
Ozzie Virgil
Tim Wallach
1987 AL All-Star Lineup
*Harold Baines
*George Bell
-Wade Boggs
-Dwight Evans
*Tony Fernandez
Rickey Henderson
*Tom Henke
Jay Howell
-Bruce Hurst
Terry Kennedy
Mark Langston
*Don Mattingly
*Mark McGwire
-Jack Morris
-Matt Nokes
Larry Parrish
Dan Plesac
-Kirby Puckett
*Willie Randolph
Harold Reynolds
*Dave Righetti
*Cal Ripken Jr.
*Bret Saberhagen
*Kevin Seitzer
Pat Tabler
-Alan Trammell
-Lou Whitaker
Dave Winfield
-Mike Witt
Other than Henderson, Winfield and maybe Orel Hershiser, there really aren't many good players who were left off the list.
The AL did have 2 more teams than the NL at that point... maybe RBI's 16-person rosters would've resulted in the AL team being thinned out too much if every team had a representative.
This is all great stuff, I think we've finally solved the mystery of Al Pedrique. You can't put Brooks on the team because you already have two Expos on the team. If you put Brooks on the team, Pittsburgh puts an unknown Barry Bonds on the roster, kicking out a legit and established bench player like Gwynn or Kruk...
Man, and I just finished reorganizing the FAQ! Just what I need more content...
Quote from: BeefMaster on 08/12/04, 02:39:10 PM
The AL did have 2 more teams than the NL at that point... maybe RBI's 16-person rosters would've resulted in the AL team being thinned out too much if every team had a representative.
Yes, they had 2 more teams, but did we really need Willie Randolph. Harold Reynolds from Seattle was maybe not as well known, but he was a pretty similar player. Hell, Langston led the league in Ks so thats a huge omission from the line up.
And Texas could have Sierra on the bench instead of Seitzer...or worst case scenario, put Hough as a starter instead of Key or Saberhagen.
The thing that still confuses me is since Moliter is the Brewers rep, why is Shroeder in the game instead of Fisk? Thats a bigger mystery to me than Pedrique.
Here's my take at what the All Star teams should have looked like, using the Shooty Babitt rules...
American League
SS - Tony Fernandez (Tor) - .322 BA, 5 HR, 67 RBI, .426 SLG, .805 OPS, 32 SB
3B - Paul Molitor (Mil) - .353 BA, 16 HR, 75 RBI, .566 SLG, 1.003 OPS, 45 SB
OF - Danny Tartabull (KC) - .309 BA, 34 HR, 101 RBI, .541 SLG, .931 OPS, 9 SB
OF - George Bell (Tor) - .308 BA, 47 HR, 134 RBI, .605 SLG, .957 OPS, 5 SB
1B - Mark McGwire (Oak) - .289 BA, 49 HR, 118 RBI, .618 SLG, .988 OPS, 1 SB
OF - Larry Sheets (Bal) - .316 BA, 31 HR, 94 RBI, .563 SLG, .921 OPS, 1 SB
C - Larry Parrish (Tex) - .268 BA, 32 HR, 100 RBI, .483 SLG, .811 OPS, 3 SB
2B - Willie Randolph (NYY) - .305 BA, 7 HR, 67 RBI, .414 SLG, .825 OPS, 11 SB
Bench - Robin Yount (Mil) - .312 BA, 21 HR, 103 RBI, .479 SLG, .863 OPS, 19 SB
Bench - Brook Jacoby (Cle) - .300 BA, 32 HR, 69 RBI, .541 SLG, .928 OPS, 2 SB
Bench - Don Mattingly (NYY) - .327 BA, 30 HR, 115 RBI, .559 SLG, .937 OPS, 1 SB
Bench - Ivan Calderon (CHW) - .293 BA, 28 HR, 83 RBI, .526 SLG, .888 OPS, 10 SB
SP - Bret Saberhagen (KC) - 18-10, 3.36 ERA, 163 SO, 53 BB
SP - Mark Langston (Sea) - 19-13, 3.84 ERA, 114 SO, 34 BB
RP - Dave Righetti (NYY) - 8-6, 3.51 ERA, 77 SO, 44 BB, 31 SV
RP - Tom Henke (Tor) - 0-6, 2.49 ERA, 128 SO, 25 BB, 34 SV
National League
2B - Juan Samuel (Phi) - .272 BA, 28 HR, 100 RBI, .502 SLG, .837 OPS, 35 SB
OF - Eric Davis (Cin) - .297, 37 HR, 100 RBI, .593 SLG, .992 OPS, 50 SB
3B - Mike Schmidt (Phi) - .293 BA, 35 HR, 113 RBI, .548 SLG, .936 OPS, 2 SB
OF - Andre Dawson (CHC) - .287 BA, 49 HR, 137 RBI, .568 SLG, .896 OPS, 11 SB
OF - Dale Murphy (Atl) - .295 BA, 44 HR, 105 RBI, .580 SLG, .997 OPS, 16 SB
1B - John Kruk (SD) - .313 BA, 20 HR, 91 RBI, .488 SLG, .894 OPS, 18 SB
C - Benito Santiago (SD) - .300 BA, 18 HR, 79 RBI, .467 SLG, .791 OPS, 21 SB
SS - Hubie Brooks (Mon) - .263 BA, 14 HR, 72 RBI, .426 SLG, .727 OPS, 4 SB
Bench - Andy Van Slyke (Pit) - .293 BA, 21 HR, 82 RBI, .507 SLG, 866 OPS, 34 SB
Bench - Tim Wallach (Mon) - .298 BA, 26 HR, 123 RBI, .514 SLG, 857 OPS, 9 SB
Bench - Tony Gwynn (SD) - .370 BA, 7 HR, 54 RBI, .511 SLG, .958 OPS, 56 SB
Bench - Tim Raines (Mon) - .300 BA,18 HR, 68 RBI, .526 SLG, .955 OPS, 50 SB
SP - Rick Sutcliffe (CHC) - 18-10, 3.68 ERA, 174 SO, 106 BB
SP - Orel Hershiser - (LA) 16-16, 3.06 ERA, 190 SO, 74 BB
RP - Lee Smith (CHC) - 4-10, 3.12 ERA, 96 SO, 32 BB, 36 SV
RP - Steve Bedrosian (Phi) - 5-3, 2.83 ERA, 74 SO, 28 BB, 40 SV
Why would Fisk be in the game? The backup AL catcher (behind Nokes) was Terry Kennedy...
At least Willie Randolph actually played in the real All-Star game.
Quote from: Shooty Babitt on 08/12/04, 02:49:21 PM
Quote from: BeefMaster on 08/12/04, 02:39:10 PM
The AL did have 2 more teams than the NL at that point... maybe RBI's 16-person rosters would've resulted in the AL team being thinned out too much if every team had a representative.
Yes, they had 2 more teams, but did we really need Willie Randolph. Harold Reynolds from Seattle was maybe not as well known, but he was a pretty similar player. Hell, Langston led the league in Ks so thats a huge omission from the line up.
And Texas could have Sierra on the bench instead of Seitzer...or worst case scenario, put Hough as a starter instead of Key or Saberhagen.
The thing that still confuses me is since Moliter is the Brewers rep, why is Shroeder in the game instead of Fisk? Thats a bigger mystery to me than Pedrique.
- Reynolds' 1987 numbers aren't nearly as good as Randolph:
Reynolds: .275 BA, 1 HR, 35 RBI, .370 SLG, .695 OPS, 60 SB
Reynolds gives you a lot more speed, but every other number is way off...
- Kevin Seitzer played for KC, not Texas.
- Schroder confuses me, too, until you break down the numbers (although I go with Parrish in this case as the C, partially because of stats and partially to give Texas a player). Schroder did have fat numbers, but he was really the second catcher on the team behind B.J. Surhoff and only played 75 games:
Bill Schroder: .332 BA, 14 HR, 42 RBI, .548 SLG, .927 OPS, 5 SB
His numbers are much better than any other AL catcher, but I can't put him in because he wasn't even the No. 1 catcher on his own team...
Two names I honestly haven't even thought of in years is Brook Jacoby, and Ivan Calderon.
Quote from: Gantry on 08/12/04, 02:43:59 PM
This is all great stuff, I think we've finally solved the mystery of Al Pedrique. You can't put Brooks on the team because you already have two Expos on the team. If you put Brooks on the team, Pittsburgh puts an unknown Barry Bonds on the roster, kicking out a legit and established bench player like Gwynn or Kruk...
Man, and I just finished reorganizing the FAQ! Just what I need more content...
Please don't lose the current explanation for Pedriq!!! It's one of the funniest parts of the FAQ
Quote from: BDawk on 08/12/04, 03:02:57 PM
Two names I honestly haven't even thought of in years is Brook Jacoby, and Ivan Calderon.
Jacoby was top 10 in the AL in HR and OPS (I love the OPS stat, especially in such an offensive driven game like RBI). Calderon is a much better option from the White Sox than Fisk or Harold Baines.
The one I was really surprised about was Larry Sheets from Baltimore. I don't remember the guy at all, but look at those numbers. Honestly, you could swap him for Jacoby as starter vs. bench and it would be almost the same.
Quote from: Dryden on 08/12/04, 02:53:06 PM
Why would Fisk be in the game? The backup AL catcher (behind Nokes) was Larry Parrish...
At least Willie Randolph actually played in the real All-Star game.
Becasue, I'm not not necessarily going by who had the best '87 season as fightonusc did. I was going for team that exemplified the '80s in order to have a line-up that wouldn't look dated in 2004. Hence, I chose Dave Stieb (probably the most dominant AL starter of the '80s along with Jack Morris) over Jimmy Key and Fisk over Parrish. Randolph would have been my top 2B (or even Frank White, but not at the expense of ignoring Seattle completely). Of couse if a player won a top award in '87 (like Bedrosian) you wouldn't have been able to leave him off the game.
I'd take Yount over Molitor any day for this team. Yount represents what RBI is all about while Molitor is just a chump. (spoken from the perspective of someone who has lived near/in Milwaukee all his life)
Didn't Ivan Calderon get shot in a cock fight dispute, or something messed up like that?
Ivan Calderon Perez (March 19, 1962 - December 27, 2003), better known as Ivan Calderon, was a Puerto Rican Major League Baseball player from 1984 to 1993 and was named an All-Star in 1991. He was murdered December 27, 2003 in a bar in Loiza, Puerto Rico. Shot five to seven times in the head, he died instantly. Local police suspect mafia involvement in the murder.
Christ, the least we can do is include him as an All-Star.
Quote from: fightonusc on 08/12/04, 03:01:47 PM
Kevin Seitzer played for KC, not Texas.
Yes, I know.
What I'm saying is that why didn't they put a Ranger on the bench instead of KC's Seitzer as the Royals already had 2 other players in the game. Was it really that necessary to have Seitzer in the game? I'm from Toronto so I was lucky that my home team was amply represented in RBI. But I'm just trying to look at this as if I were a kid in '88 growing up in Seattle or Texas. I would think, why the fuck doesn't my team have someone in RBI Baseball? Imagine how heartbroken you would be. I would equate it to having Santa Claus kick you in the balls.
Damn, that's messed up.
Quote from: Shooty Babitt on 08/12/04, 03:13:17 PM
Quote from: fightonusc on 08/12/04, 03:01:47 PM
Kevin Seitzer played for KC, not Texas.
Yes, I know.
What I'm saying is that why didn't they put a Ranger on the bench instead of KC's Seitzer as the Royals already had 2 other players in the game. Was it really that necessary to have Seitzer in the game? I'm from Toronto so I was lucky that my home team was amply represented in RBI. But I'm just trying to look at this as if I were a kid in '88 growing up in Seattle or Texas. I would think, why the fuck doesn't my team have someone in RBI Baseball? Imagine how heartbroken you would be. I would equate it to having Santa Claus kick you in the balls.
Shooty - Sorry, I misunderstood your last post! I agree - I was a Giants fan growing up, so I was happy with having my whole team in RBI. If I were a Seattle or Texas fan, for example, I'd be pissed if I couldn't get someone in the game. Especially when it's not that hard to do without taking total scrubs...
My picks for NL all stars
Lineup:
SS - Pedriq
3B - Pedriq
OF - Pedriq
OF - Pedriq
1B - Pedriq
OF - Pedriq
C - Pedriq
2B - Pedriq
Bench - Pedriq
Bench - Pedriq
Bench - Pedriq
Bench - Pedriq
SP - Pedriq
SP - Pedriq
RP - Pedriq
RP - Pedriq
Now, GDavis, if we did that, how could any other teams compete? It would be like having a team of Supermans against mere mortals...
Who would win...a team of Pedriques or the '85 Bears?
Ditka.
Quote from: fightonusc on 08/12/04, 03:23:51 PM
Now, GDavis, if we did that, how could any other teams compete? It would be like having a team of Supermans against mere mortals...
They could only play against an all-Schroeder AL all stars team.
Mini Ditkas vs team of pedriqes.
BEARSSS...
Quote from: fightonusc on 08/12/04, 02:52:34 PM
C - Larry Parrish (Tex) - .268 BA, 32 HR, 100 RBI, .483 SLG, .811 OPS, 3 SB
Awesome job! I just want to point out that Larry Parrish never spent even 1 inning as catcher in the major leagues...and if you meant Lance Parrish, he was in the NL (Phillies) by '87.
Lance is the catcher for the AL all-stars in RBI 3, if you acknowledge that game's existence.
Well, fuck my ass with a rusty chainsaw, and fuck Mrs. Parrish for naming her sons so similarly...
I'm still leaving Larry "Dont Call Me Brother" Parrish on the bench instead of Sierra. And, I'm sorry, that's going to move Robin Yount out of the lineup. And, at catcher, I'll take Terry Steinbach of Oakland (he doesn't have a brother named Jerry, does he?) ahead of Schroeder or Fisk (better BA and OPS than Fisk, played a lot more games than Schroeder).
SS - Tony Fernandez (Tor) - .322 BA, 5 HR, 67 RBI, .426 SLG, .805 OPS, 32 SB
3B - Paul Molitor (Mil) - .353 BA, 16 HR, 75 RBI, .566 SLG, 1.003 OPS, 45 SB
OF - Danny Tartabull (KC) - .309 BA, 34 HR, 101 RBI, .541 SLG, .931 OPS, 9 SB
OF - George Bell (Tor) - .308 BA, 47 HR, 134 RBI, .605 SLG, .957 OPS, 5 SB
1B - Mark McGwire (Oak) - .289 BA, 49 HR, 118 RBI, .618 SLG, .988 OPS, 1 SB
OF - Larry Sheets (Bal) - .316 BA, 31 HR, 94 RBI, .563 SLG, .921 OPS, 1 SB
C - Terry Steinbach (Oak) - .284 BA, 16 HR, 56 RBI, .463 SLG, .812 OPS, 1 SB
2B - Willie Randolph (NYY) - .305 BA, 7 HR, 67 RBI, .414 SLG, .825 OPS, 11 SB
Bench - Larry Parrish (Tex) - .268 BA, 32 HR, 100 RBI, .483 SLG, .811 OPS, 3 SB
Bench - Brook Jacoby (Cle) - .300 BA, 32 HR, 69 RBI, .541 SLG, .928 OPS, 2 SB
Bench - Don Mattingly (NYY) - .327 BA, 30 HR, 115 RBI, .559 SLG, .937 OPS, 1 SB
Bench - Ivan Calderon (CHW) - .293 BA, 28 HR, 83 RBI, .526 SLG, .888 OPS, 10 SB
SP - Bret Saberhagen (KC) - 18-10, 3.36 ERA, 163 SO, 53 BB
SP - Mark Langston (Sea) - 19-13, 3.84 ERA, 114 SO, 34 BB
RP - Dave Righetti (NYY) - 8-6, 3.51 ERA, 77 SO, 44 BB, 31 SV
RP - Tom Henke (Tor) - 0-6, 2.49 ERA, 128 SO, 25 BB, 34 SV
Quote from: fightonusc on 08/13/04, 10:55:32 AM
Well, fuck my ass with a rusty chainsaw, and fuck Mrs. Parrish for naming her sons so similarly...
I didn't know they were related.
They would never publicly admit to being brothers. They are actually the product of cousins having sex.