Decided to start a new thread about the BOPs in RBI since the last one got too long and acrimonious...
Per nightwulf's suggestion, I have finally begun dipping into the code for RBI - specifically the routines that check for and increase your error (BOP) total. I'll give a semi-technical explanation below, but
I now am pretty confident that fast throws do not cause BOPs. There is simply no place in the code for it to happen...
In the ROM for RBI, there is but one place where the number of errors is increased. The only way to get there (for the most part) is to jump to a special "increase error" subroutine. After searching through the whole ROM, I found two places where they go to said routine. The first one nightwulf documented thoroughly in the previous thread, the second one I just combed through personally (though nightwulf checked it as well). It's pretty much the spot that checks if you hit a wall with a throw and the details are in the attached text file. In both places there are zero checks for buttons or any joystick input....
Does this mean it's impossible for a fast throw to cause a BOP? No, but it's highly unlikely. They could concievably have jumped into the other two BOP checks, but that makes no sense when they can jump to the BOP code directly. So for now I'm in the "fast throws do not cause BOPs" camp and will be testing it out thoroughly with my next set of games. So what have we learned?
- Each team has their own "BOP Percentage"
- Detroit is the worst fielding team, but not by much
- Fast throws do not cause BOPs
- The pitcher (or any other fielder) is no more prone to BOPs
Strange, but true. PS - My research was done independently to nightwulfs, so he wasnt brainwashing me. I just looked at the facts myself and came to (at least for me) rather straightforward conclusion...
Discussion is welcome, but lets keep it civil....
Hey Gantry...can you or Nightwulf clear up this comment made by Nightwulf in the other thread:
"I'm done with this. If anyone's interested in trying to take it further, I'm at the point where I've identified $DDD8 as the first line of executable code that runs when a player is about to touch the ball, but only if the play is "eligible" for a BOP (that is, the ball has left the bat but not yet touched a wall or another fielder). Set a breakpoint there and follow the code. It's fairly straightforward."
Specifically where he mentions that the play is only eligible for a BOP if it hasn't touched another fielder or the wall. I played a game this week where the centerfielder had his back up against the wall on a long fly ball. The fly ball hit the wll just above the fielder's head and came down on him and a BOP occured.
Quote from: Shooty Babitt on 08/14/04, 05:24:38 PM
Specifically where he mentions that the play is only eligible for a BOP if it hasn't touched another fielder or the wall. I played a game this week where the centerfielder had his back up against the wall on a long fly ball. The fly ball hit the wll just above the fielder's head and came down on him and a BOP occured.
Ah, error on my part then. I didn't trace code to determine the conditions of whether a play can "BOP" or not, but relied on what I thought they were.
Correct wording would probably be "if the ball has not touched the ground or another fielder after leaving the bat" then.
Nightwulf
Quote from: nightwulf on 08/14/04, 05:42:46 PM
Correct wording would probably be "if the ball has not touched the ground or another fielder after leaving the bat" then.
You can bop a ball that's hit the ground, though...probably just mis-worded...and ground ball can be bopped.
Quote from: Shooty Babitt on 08/14/04, 05:24:38 PM
Hey Gantry...can you or Nightwulf clear up this comment made by Nightwulf in the other thread:
"I'm done with this. If anyone's interested in trying to take it further, I'm at the point where I've identified $DDD8 as the first line of executable code that runs when a player is about to touch the ball, but only if the play is "eligible" for a BOP (that is, the ball has left the bat but not yet touched a wall or another fielder). Set a breakpoint there and follow the code. It's fairly straightforward."
Specifically where he mentions that the play is only eligible for a BOP if it hasn't touched another fielder or the wall. I played a game this week where the centerfielder had his back up against the wall on a long fly ball. The fly ball hit the wll just above the fielder's head and came down on him and a BOP occured.
Just to clarify, you can certainly BOP a ball after it hits the wall, I saw it happen in a 2 player game on Sunday. I hit one off the top of the CF wall, my opponent was standing against the wall it hit the wall and then when he caught it off the wall there was a BOP.
If it's possible to get a BOP after the ball hits the wall, why wouldn't it be possible to get a BOP on a throw to first? Would anyone like to see that happen? I think I would, I'd take the tradeoff of being pissed when it happened to me to see it happen to my opponent.
Jesus fucking christ.
After the ball leaves the bat, before it touches another fielder, before the ball comes to a complete stop on it's own or rebounds off of a wall while rolling on the ground.
How about that?
Nightwulf
fast throws do cause bops and i am currently preparing a thesis.....
Quote from: nightwulf on 08/18/04, 02:58:13 PM
Jesus fucking christ.
After the ball leaves the bat, before it touches another fielder, before the ball comes to a complete stop on it's own or rebounds off of a wall while rolling on the ground.
How about that?
Nightwulf
hell yeah!
I love Salty Nightwulf...
(http://www.taquitos.net/dbimages13/MisterSalty.jpg)
I used to eat the Mr. Salty sticks all the time as a kid, pretended they were cigarettes...
"These pretzels are making me thirsty."
Quote from: Big Hath on 05/05/06, 08:36:16 PM
"These pretzels are making me thirsty."
They really are the saltiest (and best) pretzels EVER.
Quote from: broiler on 05/05/06, 06:06:57 PM
fast throws do cause bops and i am currently preparing a thesis.....
dude, i explained this to you face to face. EVERYBODY tries to quickthrow EVERYTIME. so if it really caused bops, bops would happen EVERYTIME. post pics of your beltbuckle with your thesis though, i'd be happy to read it.
the thing is that i know when i make the fast throw to soon, i can just feel it when i make the mistake. and more often then not, those result in BOPs. i am still ironing out the kinks of my study, which will soon be posted.
Quote from: broiler on 05/10/06, 11:17:33 AM
the thing is that i know when i make the fast throw to soon, i can just feel it when i make the mistake. and more often then not, those result in BOPs. i am still ironing out the kinks of my study, which will soon be posted.
I know that feeling it really seems to up the likelihood, it's like shit I pushed too early, and then you are relieved when there is no BOP
You guys are a bunch of superstitious nuts.
No way, no how does quick-throwing increase boppitude. I quick-throw EVERY TIME and I get outs as a result, not bops. Actually, the only time I don't quick-throw is when turning a DP at second since throwing too fast there really can fuck you up, but that's not a bop situation.
I see no evidence for this. Although Kips does get an inordinate amount of bops no matter what team he plays with, so maybe there is something else to the picture...
Quick throwing itself isn't the problem, it's trying to throw before you field
Quote from: ultimate7 on 05/10/06, 12:28:33 PM
Quick throwing itself isn't the problem, it's trying to throw before you field
I suppose I have good timing then.
But, assuming alcohol consumption adversely affects timing, shouldn't bops on average go up the drunker one plays? I have not noticed such a phenomenon. Then again I was always drunk at the time.
Also according to this theory, bops would be more likely to be made on fielded grounders than on fielded pop-ups (presuming the fielder generally has no reason to try to rush a throw after catching a pop-up, whereas the fielder taking a grounder does). I have likewise noticed no such phenomenon.
Quote from: OctogenarianFranco on 05/10/06, 12:35:12 PM
Quote from: ultimate7 on 05/10/06, 12:28:33 PM
Quick throwing itself isn't the problem, it's trying to throw before you field
I want to be Nightwulf's friend
Quote from: ultimate7 on 05/10/06, 12:44:14 PM
I have crumbled before OctogenarianFranco's specious arguments.
spe·cious adj.
1. Having the ring of truth or plausibility but actually fallacious: a specious argument.
2. Deceptively attractive.
Quote from: OctogenarianFranco on 05/10/06, 12:35:12 PM
(presuming the fielder generally has no reason to try to rush a throw after catching a pop-up, whereas the fielder taking a grounder does).
a fielder has reason to rush a throw after catching a pop up if there is a baserunner looking to tag up. this situation calls for getting the ball out of the glove very quickly, sometimes causing a bop
Quote from: broiler on 05/10/06, 02:46:16 PM
Quote from: OctogenarianFranco on 05/10/06, 12:35:12 PM
(presuming the fielder generally has no reason to try to rush a throw after catching a pop-up, whereas the fielder taking a grounder does).
a fielder has reason to rush a throw after catching a pop up if there is a baserunner looking to tag up. this situation calls for getting the ball out of the glove very quickly, sometimes causing a bop
just wait, the proof is on the way, and you will probably delete that last post as not to look foolish
Quote from: broiler on 05/10/06, 02:58:21 PM
just wait, the proof is on the way, and you will probably delete that last post as not to look foolish
You underestimate my tolerance for looking foolish.
Quote from: Shooty Babitt on 05/10/06, 03:02:58 PM
Quote from: broiler on 05/10/06, 02:58:21 PM
just wait, the proof is on the way, and you will probably delete that last post as not to look foolish
You underestimate my tolerance for looking foolish.
After all, he is Canadian, and look at how he would spell "colour"...
Quote from: ultimate7 on 05/10/06, 12:28:33 PM
Quick throwing itself isn't the problem, it's trying to throw before you field, but only with fielders who's names begin with "H"
Quote from: nightwulf on 05/10/06, 07:03:35 PM
Quote from: ultimate7 on 05/10/06, 12:28:33 PM
Quick throwing itself isn't the problem, it's trying to throw before you field, but only with fielders who's names begin with "H"
Now that's just ridiculous, it's fielders that are out of position due to PH, Armas makes so many BOPS at 2B
burks plays a much better second.
tim or ellis?
timothy
ellis played a short stint at second in triple a pawtucket, but made three errors in six games, so they moved him back in the outfield.
i know i made that all up, so don't crucify me.
but there's no S on Burke ;)
Ellis Burke
wow, i am getting real close to finishing this thesis, prepare for ludicrous speed
Quote from: darkside on 05/15/06, 04:05:00 PM
Quote from: broiler on 05/15/06, 04:05:00 PM
wow, i am getting real close to finishing this thesis, prepare for ludicrous speed
all show, no go
jk
i am not talking about mitsubishi here, i am talking about a revelation that can change rbi as we know it
i don't want to rain on your parade, but you may want to address the fact that if you use nightulf's editor and set errors to "0" you will never have a bop. ever.
Quote from: Teddyballgame on 05/15/06, 04:12:32 PM
i don't want to rain on your parade, but you may want to address the fact that if you use nightulf's editor and set errors to "0" you will never have a bop. ever.
Cheerios-crapper...
Quote from: Teddyballgame on 05/15/06, 04:12:32 PM
i don't want to rain on your parade, but you may want to address the fact that if you use nightulf's editor and set errors to "0" you will never have a bop. ever.
The quick "early" throw is a multiplier on the BOP ratio
Quote from: Teddyballgame on 05/15/06, 04:12:32 PM
i don't want to rain on your parade, but you may want to address the fact that if you use nightulf's editor and set errors to "0" you will never have a bop. ever.
if you set errors to "0" you will never have a computer forced bop, but i firmly believe in the user forced bop. the proof will shock you, 2 in the coot, 1 in the boot
Quote from: ultimate7 on 05/15/06, 04:17:59 PM
The quick "early" throw is a multiplier on the BOP ratio
Multiplication doesn't exist in binary mathematics. A loop simulating decimal multiplication (or a similar effect) would be blatantly easy to spot.
$DA82> 0A 07 0C 0A 08 0B 0B 09 06 04 ; error probability by team
$DDDE> AD 1501: LDA $0115 ;
$DDE1> D0 06: BNE $DDE9 ;
$DDE3> AE 1701: LDX $0117 ;
$DDE6> 4C ECDD: JMP $DDEC ;
$DDE9> AE 1601: LDX $0116 ;
$DDEC> 20 67EE: JSR $EE67 ;
$EE67> A5 16: LDA $16 ; start of RNG routine, seeds in $15-$17,
$EE69> 0A: ASL A ; pseudo-RN left in A
$EE6A> 45 15: EOR $15 ;
$EE6C> 49 80: EOR #$80 ;
$EE6E> 0A: ASL A ;
$EE6F> 26 15: ROL $15 ;
$EE71> 26 16: ROL $16 ;
$EE73> A5 17: LDA $17 ;
$EE75> 0A: ASL A ;
$EE76> 0A: ASL A ;
$EE77> 38: SEC ;
$EE78> 65 17: ADC $17 ;
$EE7A> 85 17: STA $17 ;
$EE7C> 45 15: EOR $15 ;
$EE7E> 45 16: EOR $16 ;
$EE80> 60: RTS ;
$DDEF> DD 82DA: CMP $DA82,X ; compare probability number with RN in A
$DDF2> B0 0A: BCS $DDFE ; branch if RN in A > error probability by team
$DDF4> 20 BDB5: JSR $B5BD ; ... otherwise JSR to error++ routine
$B5BD> AD 1501: LDA $0115 ;
$B5C0> 49 10: EOR #$10 ;
$B5C2> AA: TAX ;
$B5C3> FE 6806: INC $0668,X ; increment error number offset by team in X
$B5C6> 60: RTS ;
Please point out any code which uses a "multiplier" for error probability. The appropriate number is loaded from RAM (addressable at 0xDA82-0xDA8B), compared with a pseudo-random number generated at 0xEE67 and left in the accumulator, and the branch to increment team errors is immediately made if an error occured.
Quote from: broiler on 05/15/06, 04:18:20 PM
if you set errors to "0" you will never have a computer forced bop, but i firmly believe in the user forced bop. the proof will shock you, 2 in the coot, 1 in the boot
So let's see one. Create an appropriate ROM and film your games with fceu-blip. Someone believed just as firmly that pinch hitters whose names begin with "H" were better hitters.
Quote
$DDF2> B0 0A: BCS $DDFE ; branch if RN in A > error probability by team
$DDFE = Don't Dare Field Early
I have a theory for those who experience this BOP (throwing before you field) phenomenon.
It's a quantum consciousness approach, so it does indeed have a strong mystical element to it since there can never be empirical and physical proof for this unless one was to film the games and demonstrate this enough times to merit any consideration to such a mystical theory. Or if there were some sudden breakthroughs in neurological/quantum/physical science.
First, if we are to consider that thoughts are proven to be powerful frequencies (brainwaves are measured in hz), and if we are to entertain the notion, on a subatomic level, that all frequencies do in fact warp matter and warp any other frequency, then there may be some truth into this phenomenon.
Basically, if you firmly believe that pressing the button excessively leads to a BOP, then this may come true if you have this thought during the play and before you even play. The probabilities for a BOP increase if your thoughts are overloaded with the belief that you may be causing a BOP to happen. Again, thoughts are powerful frequencies and according to theoretical physicists, this may be possible in theory. It's a byproduct of the Law of Attraction. What you put in, you get out from the universe---thoughts and experiences align---all good and bad and between.
So there's that from a different approach and the only reasonable explanation in tackling this mystery. ;)
Also, there is the law of coincidence. Basically, if you hit the buttons before every ball that is fielded, coincidental probabilities dictate that you will indeed experience a BOP, because that's what the probabilities say if you hit the damn buttons early every time you field the ball. Duh...
what about using some sort of projections to cause the opposing team to bop?