Dee-Nee Forums

I don't believe any of them are truly worthy, but what if?

I think Clemens gets in.

I think all of them should, none of them will anytime soon, and Clemens slightly edges Bonds to be the first on the list.

I voted "other" simply because I think all of the big names are unlikely to get in until their last year on the ballot, if at all.  I think Manny Ramirez or Rafael Palmeiro are just as likely to get in the HOF as Bonds.

How about Sosa? Most of the other guys had careers before the steroid speculation.   I think it's common belief that Sosa would be a 4th outfielder his carrier if not for juice.

Quote from: BDawk on 08/23/13, 01:41:28 PM
How about Sosa? Most of the other guys had careers before the steroid speculation.   I think it's common belief that Sosa would be a 4th outfielder his carrier if not for juice.

I'm confused as to what point you are making.

The other guys can argue that they were good without steroids.  Not Sosa. Just a general point.   Like your penis

Quote from: BDawk on 08/23/13, 01:41:28 PM
How about Sosa? Most of the other guys had careers before the steroid speculation.   I think it's common belief that Sosa would be a 4th outfielder his carrier if not for juice.

It depends on whether you think the steroids were a big part of his ability to draw walks, which pretty much showed up out of nowhere right around the time he started hitting a ton of homers (prior to that, he was a 30/30 guy but with a low OBP).

For what it's worth, to the best of my knowledge Sosa is the only one on that list who's never been directly linked to PEDs - it's pretty much 100% rumor and logical guesswork with him.

Best years pre-juice: (based on obvious physical appearance)

Bonds, 1993: .336, 46 HR, 123 RBI

McGwire, 1987: .289, 49, 118

Sosa, 1993: .261, 33, 93

Palmeiro, 1991: .322, 26, 88

M. Ramirez, 1996: .309, 33, 112

Clemens, 1986: 24-4, 2.48 ERA, 238 K

Nothing more scientific than that.

How do you know those years were pre-Juice?  I thought Canseco said he was injecting steriods into McGwire's ass in the 80s

I said by physical appearance.  McGwire was not HUGE back in '87.  Look at some of his old pics.  He certainly didn't look as if he were on steroids at the time.  Speaking of the old Oakland A's....here is Terry Steinbach's career HR total.  I think Terry accidentally sat on one of Mac's needles in the locker room in '96.  It was the same year Brady Anderson jacked 50 after hitting 16 the previous year.

1987 16 
1988 9
1989 7
1990 9 
1991 6 
1992 12 
1993 10
1994 11
1995 15
1996 35
1997 12
1998 14
1999 4

Quote from: Nacho on 08/23/13, 12:47:46 PM
I voted "other" simply because I think all of the big names are unlikely to get in until their last year on the ballot, if at all.  I think Manny Ramirez or Rafael Palmeiro are just as likely to get in the HOF as Bonds.

Since Palmerio was busted for roids and lied to Congress about it, I think his chances are way lower than Bonds.

Quote from: superood on 08/23/13, 11:39:47 PM
I said by physical appearance.  McGwire was not HUGE back in '87.  Look at some of his old pics.  He certainly didn't look as if he were on steroids at the time.  Speaking of the old Oakland A's....here is Terry Steinbach's career HR total.  I think Terry accidentally sat on one of Mac's needles in the locker room in '96.  It was the same year Brady Anderson jacked 50 after hitting 16 the previous year.

1987 16 
1988 9
1989 7
1990 9 
1991 6 
1992 12 
1993 10
1994 11
1995 15
1996 35
1997 12
1998 14
1999 4

For guys who had one huge year, I usually assume that it's more likely that it was a juiced ball situation or a run of good luck than that they were on 'roids.  Why would they stop after that year, if it worked so well?

Joe Mauer's probably going to get this kind of thing when people look back at his stats, because of the 29 homers he hit in 2009.  He simply had a very good year, hitting really well in general, and he discovered that year that he could hit liners the opposite way and sneak them into the first couple rows of the Metrodome's left field seats.  He can't do that at Target Field, so his homers went back down to their previous levels the next season when they moved.

Did that chicken eating SOB Wade Boggs juice that one year he hit 20+ homers? 

It's generally assumed that the ball was juiced in '87, as homers were way up that year.

Quote from: Gantry on 08/26/13, 07:27:39 AM

Quote from: Nacho on 08/23/13, 12:47:46 PM
I voted "other" simply because I think all of the big names are unlikely to get in until their last year on the ballot, if at all.  I think Manny Ramirez or Rafael Palmeiro are just as likely to get in the HOF as Bonds.

Since Palmerio was busted for roids and lied to Congress about it, I think his chances are way lower than Bonds.

Yes, but HOF voters are about as likely to forgive Palmeiro for that as they are to forgive Bonds for breaking a hallowed record by juicing.  That is to say, neither are likely to be forgiven.

There's no way Palmerio gets in before Bonds, I'd make a wager on it. 

I'm with Gantry, no one named Palmerio gets into the HOF before Bonds

Well it'll be awhile anyway for Manny, he still tried to play this year, not sure if he's giving up or what.

Bonds had a HOF career before any of the steroid talk.  But his numbers from 2000-2004 are completely INSANE, then he hit 26 and 28 homers his final 2 seasons probably still juicing.

Even with all of that, I'd probably say Bonds, but Clemens is a close 2nd.

762 HR and not in the HOF would be silly no matter what........ Clemens K's and win total too,  they'll both get in, but might not be until well past their 10th tries on the ballots.

Quote from: Metal King on 09/02/13, 10:48:41 AM
762 HR and not in the HOF would be silly no matter what........

I guess my point is that the fact that he is seen to have tarnished a sacred record actually works against him, not for him.

They should all be in.  It's the league's fault for not testing for steroids, not the players' fault.  You wouldn't leave a pitcher out because he scuffed the ball.

I mean it would just baffle the mind if there was never a Bonds in the Hall of Fame, with those numbers, even despite juicing.

Gary Sheffield ended with 509 homers, he probably won't make it......  500 homers doesn't mean much these days.  Pretty soon we'll have a dozen or so eligible HOF'ers with 500+ HR who won't make it in.

I'm still just FUCKING PUZZLED as to why Biggio and Piazza didn't make it on their first tries, even though they played through the steroid era......

Piazza greatest hitting catcher ever (and 427 Home Runs), and Biggio 3,000 + Hits and 1,844 Runs, plus top 7 or 8 in Doubles.......

Oh I know they'll get in, probably well before their 5th attempts, but these two guys were obvious first-balloters.

There were rumors that Piazza had bacne.  Seriously, there were writers who refused to vote for him based on that.

Also rumors he was gay. Everyone hates an alleged gay juicer

Bonds likely.  Hey, the guy won 3 (THREE) MVP's through 1993, and he was only a Giant for one of those years.

Who would have guessed he'd win four more.......

Oops.  Biggio is FIFTH all-time in Doubles, with 668, behind Speaker, Rose, Cobb and Musial.....

Do any really deserve it? Clemens is a jerk anyways, juiced or not. I suppose you could do as suggested, look at their numbers before it 'appears' they were juicing-but how is that reliable? If ya gotta cheat-ya aren't a HOFer