OK, I'm probably going to do a quick ROM based on this. Based on the players available on the original RBI ROM, what would the ideal line-ups be for each team. Meaning, you don't have to worry about having each position filled, and you can move guys around to different positions.
I thought for a while about this, and I'm prepared to defend some of my choices, even though they occassionally go against conventional RBI wisdom.
California
Wilfong
DeCinces
Joyner
Jackson
Jones
Downing
Schofield
Hendricks
Boston
Burks
Rice
Baylor
Armas
DwEvans
Henderson
Gedman
Boggs
Detroit
Trammell
Gibson
DaEvans
Nokes
Sheridan
Lemon
Whitaker
Brookens
Minnesota
Bush
Puckett
Gaetti
Brunansky
Hrbek
Launder
Gagne
Larkin
Houston
Lopez
Cruz
Garner
GDavis
Bass
Reynolds
Ashby
Thon
New York
Dykstra
Hernandez
Teufel
Strawberry
Carter
Johnson
Heep
Knight
St. Louis
Coleman
Pendleton
Morris
JClark
Lindeman
Pena
McGee
Herr
San Francisco
Leonard
Mitchell
CDavis
WClark
Maldanado
Spilman
Brenly
Speier
American League
Molitor
Mattingly
Bell
Canseco
McGwire
Ripken
Brett
Seitzer
National League
Raines
Santiago
Murphy
Dawson
EDavis
Schmidt
Guerrero
Kruk
Great thread! Tough it's going to take some thought. I definitely wouldn't keep Trammel at the leadoff spot for Det, maybe Whitaker or even Sheridan there. I much prefer to lead off with lefties, but maybe that's me...
Initial reaction is that I want all the lefties at the top and save the righties for the bottom of the order.
And Ruppert at #2 for Cali for sure...
Thoughts?
I think we're going to find the "Straight vs. Curve" gap become a factor here. Since runs are more difficult to produce with curve style, I want some speed with my lead-off guy - if I can get him to third on a single to left-center field, I'm going to take it, because I need to play small ball more than if I'm playing straight pitch and can afford to play station to station and wait for the big blast.
I would want to have lefties go 3-4-5 in the order, and give Reggie some additional protection by having Ruperto bat behind him rather than someone else (would you move DeCinces to the five hole, then?). Once again, in curve, it's a lot easier to pitch around someone like Potatoes Jackson.
I like Trammell leading off for Detroit - the other choice would be Sweet Lou, mainly because he gives you five straight lefties to start out the order. I don't get as concerned about lefty vs. righty as other people, though, and I think Trammell gives you the same power as Whitaker with more contact and much better speed.
For some odd reason I always put Armas in the 8 spot for the Sox, I know its stupid but I just like him there
I would definitely put Armas at the bottom of the order. His stats say 40+ homers, but he chokes too much to bat cleanup.
Great thread; great picks.
I'm personally a fan of Armas at #8. That's probably one where we'll see the straight pitch/ curve differences. I know a lot of curve players don't like a big hitter in the 8 hole because they can be walked to get to the pitcher.
I like the lineups the way they are. I can't even think about this hypothetically as it fucks up far too much brain matter.
Ruppert is No 6. Armas is No 8. Spilman is No 1. It's just the way it was meant to be.
Now let's stop this nonsense before the RBI gods strike us and our golden lineups down.
Really good job with your picks, I can't say i disagree too much anywhere... however, with the Cards, I feel like Pena should be moved down to 8, and bump McGee and Herr up one... I think JClark, Lindeman, Pena is too much fat-shit-double-play waiting to happen.. plus with how likely Lindeman is to clear the bases, I'd personally like to see the quick McGee and Herr up to get on, then hope against hope that Pena's pseudo-power shows up.. in any case, I feel he is much less likely to hit into a DP in the 8 spot, behind those two... its just a thought tho, and I'm sure you have equally good reasoning to have him where he is...
and in response to Trammell, I agree with keeping him in the leadoff spot... Det has plenty of power for lower in the line-up, so you can afford to keep him here..
re: Armas - I just have a hard time justifying batting 43 HRs in the eight hole - especially when that means batting no power, chicken eating, Margo Adams fucking, 72 beer drinking Wade Boggs ahead of him.
re: Pena - See, I think that with the likelihood that Lindeman is going to go yard, you're probably going to have Pena on with no one ahead of him, therefore minimizing the DP risk. Plus, this give me the chance to have two pretty speedy players in McGee and Herr coming up before the pitcher, where hopefully a bunt from this position can score a run, or a good base knock from a PH can really do some damage. But, I can see the value of batting Pena eighth. Frankly, I thought more people would be screaming about bencing Ozzie Smith in favor of "that sack" Tommy Herr.
Let me you guys this - would having a version of the game with the best line-up already starting be better for you, or do you lose the thrill of getting the first AB boost when you, say, bring in Armas to the eight spot?
3 things I noticed that I would have different
1) Nokes further down in Detroit's order
2) Smith instead of Herr for STL
3) Madlock in Detroits lineup (in place of ? Whitaker)
Armas - even though he has 43 homers, he has a power rating of 918 and a contact rating of 28. Baylor's is 924 and 29 and Rice's is 891 and 10. Remember to look at the stats that actually determine a player's performance.
I would rather have Armas in the bottom of the lineup because there he is less likely to hit with someone on base. Armas is much slower than Baylor and Rice. Though speed does not matter when you hit a home run, your clean up guy also needs to be able to hit doubles. Armas has problems with that.
Keep Armas in the bottom of the lineup for the occasional homer, but he's no good in the 4 spot.
national league: bounce santiago, put raines at #2, and gwynn leading off. although quicker, raines has more power and gwynn is always on base.
I have to go with ultimate7 on this one. Although by replacing Whitaker with Madlock is giving up a lefty for a righty. I still do it almost every game. I've noticed that most of you prefer left handers to right. I was wondering if this was also the case when hitting against a left handed pitcher? Because personally I hit better with right handers against left handed pitching. Is this only me or does someone elso use this strategy?
No, you're not the only one.
I've always done better with the opposite-handed pitcher. Unlike the majority, though, I tend to hit better with righties.
Bench Whitaker--he'd be a much better player off the bench
Something BDawk's comment brought to mind - would starting the good bench players end up hurting the team in the long run? The bench guys wouldn't get that boost from being pinch hitters their first time up, and since you're starting the best overall players, you wouldn't be doing any subbing into the regular batting order. The only time you'd get the PH bonus would be when you bring in someone for the pitcher.
I wonder if RBI 2/3 have the PH bonus (I'd guess they do, but I'm not sure). I usually just start the best overall players, but the benches are big enough (5 or 6 players, depending on whether there's a DH) that it might make sense to start scrubs and bring in pinch hitters for them in their first AB.
I think most of the bench players that would be starting are the ones that are good even after their 1st AB boost. And it would probably create a new group of bench players that are considered clutch for one AB.
Basically what i'm saying is that players like Jones or Armas are going to be good regardless. The players now on the bench who were completely worthless before (Santana, Owen, Uribe, etc) would at least now be good for 1 PH at bat kind of like Oquendo or Sullivan.
I'm with you - it's the crappy guys who will get benched. My thought is, though, that the benched guys probably won't even get that single, powered-up AB, since they wouldn't PH for anyone in the starting lineup. The only way they'd get in is for a pitcher sub, and depending on when you change pitchers, there probably won't be more than two PH opportunities for the whole game. Perhaps the key is to find two actual bench players, start the two worst guys, and sub them the first time through the order for the new "starters". This way, you get two extra powered-up ABs, plus you still have some semblance of a bench.
I tend to not be as big a believer in the mystical power of the lefty batter except for this - of the eight non-All Star teams in the game, only seven of the 32 pitchers are lefties. Additionally, only NY and St. Louis have two lefties and two righties in their pitching staff, and three teams (California, Houston and San Francisco) don't have a single lefty in their pitching staff.
Which means that statistically, you're getting better batter/pitcher match-ups by having a left-handed batter in the line-up almost every time. I suppose that if you were playing against St. Louis and your opponent was starting John Tudor, I guess you could make a case for adding righties; otherwise, I think there is an advantage to having lefties in the line-up, no matter what.
My first thought with Detroit was not to change much, because I think they're pretty perfect the way they are. But, after thinking about it for a while, Whitaker being a lefty doesn't justify keeping Mad Dog on the bench for me. I've taken the thoughts about Fatty Nokes into consideration and also adjusted accordingly to accomodate that. So, I moved Madlock to the three spot (good contact, speed and power), put DaEvans in clean-up (lots of grand slam potential) and moved Fatty down the order.
Detroit
Trammell
Gibson
Madlock
DaEvans
Brookens
Lemon
Nokes
Sheridan
After we come to a consensus on this, I'll go ahead and get an Ideal Line-Up ROM created, so any additional input is more than appreciated.
Let me say that I like Armas in the clean-up spot because he gives Baylor protection if he's batting in the three hole. That being said, if people want to move Armas further down in the order, I'm fine with that; in good faith, I can't move a guy with 918 power to the eight spot, though. I'm willing to omve Boggs to the second spot, just because he's such a good contact guy that hopefully he gets me two on for the meat of the order.
Comments on this, then?
Boston
Burks
Boggs
Rice
Baylor
DwEvans
Armas
Henderson
Gedman
I kinda like Brookens at the end of the lineup. Gives you something to be excited about with the eight hole.
Quote from: fightonusc on 09/01/04, 01:06:33 PM
Boston
Burks
Boggs
Rice
Baylor
DwEvans
Armas
Henderson
Gedman
That works.
Well, I think you should be able to get excited about PS I Love You! Plus, it's hard to keep Brookens and his 897 power that far down in the line-up. As previously mentioned, in curve I can just walk him to get to the pitcher, minimizing his effectiveness.
And, just for fan super fan number 13 over here (this mean you, Gantry), I'll move Rupperto to the two hole and switch him with DeCinces...
So here's a ROM with my take on the Ideal RBI Batting Orders, with input from all of you guys. Let me know your thoughts...