Hi Everyone!
My name is Michael Cross and I am starting a Youtube channel about Sports Video Games. My first topic is going to be on one of my personal favorites, RBI Baseball.
After speaking with Gantry via Email, he recommended me to come to the forums and as some questions directly here, since some of my research information is a little vague. Here are some of the questions:
- How did the MLBAM get the rights to the new RBI Baseball game?
- What major internal changes (coding) were made from RBI 1 to RBI 2 to RBI 3?
- Was the move to the Sega Genesis done because of the lawsuit Atari Games Corp. v. Nintendo of America?
- Why did RBI never acquire a license from the MLB for the team names?
I also want to do a video from someone who really understands the players ratings. This would be put into the video, but more of a cut away to an expert as appose to have anything to do with me. Curious if anyone would be interested? If you are please email me at mikecross321@gmail.com.
I want to thank you all in advance, this website has helped me out through this process more that anything else on the internet. I refer to it constantly writing the script.
On a tablet without a keyboard at the moment, but I will attempt a more thorough answer later. I had an email exchange with a guy from the previous group that was going to reboot the series, but I never heard the reason for the cancellation or how MLBAM got the rights.
MLBAM is a little too close to NAMBLA, imo.
For the names you needed permission from the players association and for the team names you needed to license from MLB itself. Major League Baseball got the MLB license but no players license, it came out in early 88. Perhaps there was an exclusivity when Major League Baseball secured the team license? Or maybe it just came down to financials, since you can use the city name there is very little benefit to getting the license with only 10 teams.
Wasn't the original Tecmo Bowl similar? Had a player's license but no official team names.
I don't know that there were any games until the 90s that had both league and player's association licenses. Games that had one or the other, off the top of my head:
RBI 1-3 (MLBPA)
Major League Baseball (MLB)
Tecmo Bowl (NFLPA)
Ken Griffey Jr. Presents Major League Baseball (MLB)
Some of the Madden games (NFL; didn't start getting NFLPA until the N64 generation)
I don't know of any NBA or NHL games that had the same issue - I think even the early EA NBA games (Bulls vs. Lakers is the first one I remember) had both, as did Tecmo NBA Basketball, and I believe the NHL series was always the same way. Tecmo Super Bowl was the first game I ever played that head both league and player licenses.
QuoteWas the move to the Sega Genesis done because of the lawsuit Atari Games Corp. v. Nintendo of America?
I wouldn't think so, going to the Tengen wiki page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengen_%28company%29) shows they released games on NES after the lawsuit regarding Tetris started in 1989. I see RBI 4 released in 1992 as the first game on the Genesis - that time is pretty far for the course when NES developers starting developing for the new, more powerful and better selling system.
Quote from: mikecross on 11/25/15, 09:34:20 AM
- What major internal changes (coding) were made from RBI 1 to RBI 2 to RBI 3?
In terms of on-field stuff, the changes in the series were mostly cosmetic. We've verified in the game code that the ratings scheme was identical from RBI to RBI 3 - same set of ratings, with two extra bytes to hold slightly longer player names and a different way to handle ERAs. The only on-field gameplay additions were a bunt button and jumping/diving, both added in 2, and the only on-field difference from 2 to 3 (which was basically just a roster update) was that 3 let the batter move closer to the plate.
The big changes were graphical and off-field. Graphics-wise, the player and field graphics were completely redone. Off-field, there were a lot of stuff:
- Both players could pause in-game
- Bigger pause menu, allowing for pinch-runners, viewing the scoreboard (from where you could forfeit), and switch-hitting
- Full 24-man rosters
- All 26 MLB teams, plus all-star teams (RBI 3 added an additional 28 historical teams)
- New "end boss" team, if you beat every team in your league in single-player
Quote from: mikecross on 11/25/15, 09:34:20 AM
- Why did RBI never acquire a license from the MLB for the team names?
My best guess is that they didn't think they needed to. At the time, graphics weren't to a point where they could have made recognizable team uniforms, so they only value they'd get is being able to use the logos on places like scoreboards and menu screens.
Quote from: mikecross on 11/25/15, 09:34:20 AM
I also want to do a video from someone who really understands the players ratings. This would be put into the video, but more of a cut away to an expert as appose to have anything to do with me. Curious if anyone would be interested? If you are please email me at mikecross321@gmail.com.
I was not the one who figured any of this stuff out (nightwulf is the guy who did most of that work), but I do understand the stuff pretty well, so I would be interested in that if you can't find someone more qualified to do it.
Thank you guys so much for your insight. I have more questions if that is alright with you?
- Who is considered the worst player(s) in the RBI 1?
- Are there any advantages playing with the home team?
- Have you played the new RBI Baseball 14/15? Any opinions?
- How can I contact nightwulf?
Thank you guys again!
Worst player is probably between one of these players:
- Spike Owen (miserable contact and power makes him maybe the worst player on any starting lineup)
- Marc Sullivan (almost as shitty as Spike Owen but a lot slower. Pretty much one of the few bench guys on any team that will never see an AB.)
- Alan Ashby (the worst player on the worst team in RBI)
- Mark Davidson (better off leaving the pitcher in and trying for a pitcher bunt hit)
- Rafael Santana (by player attributes, simply the worst player in RBI)
- Al Pedrique (you know, National League All-Star Al Pedrique? Wait, you don't know him?)
- No advantages to playing as the home team other than your standard baseball advantages.
- Everyone who has played RBI 14/15 seems to like it quite a bit. I've only played 14, and I think it's about as close as you can get to the "feel" of the original RBI while also making the graphics be a bit more modern.
- Contact nightwulf? Just send a message through the lightning. (Or send him a PM through the forum.)
I bought RBI 15 for the iPad this weekend since it was down to $1. I played a single game and had fun, it does indeed play similarly (except the fielders move on their own as the default, didn't look at the options to see if this could be changed). Coors Field looked good. I look forward to playing a few more games before I forget about it.
Quote from: fightonusc on 12/01/15, 11:35:50 AM
- No advantages to playing as the home team other than your standard baseball advantages.
If your opponent is an asshole, there is actually a substantial disadvantage, because that means that you're player 2, and only player 1 can pause the game.
Fair point.
Quote from: mikecross on 12/01/15, 09:39:29 AM
- Have you played the new RBI Baseball 14/15? Any opinions?
Here's the thread that had most of the discussion on RBI '14 (https://forums.dee-nee.com/index.php?topic=29146.0) (I have not seen any firsthand discussion here of '15). Page 15 of that thread is when the game was actually released and where the firsthand impressions started showing up.
My thoughts...
- It's very much NOT a remake of RBI Baseball - if you were hoping for a pure graphical update like Tecmo Bowl Throwback (which actually allows you to push a button and go back to SNES graphics during play), you were disappointed. The basic control scheme and roster construction are the same, but there are a lot of differences:
- Players move one at a time, not all at once
- Direct control of fielders when they have the ball, rather than direction+button to run them to a base
- DH support
- Fly balls carry much differently
- Pitchers show visible signs of tiredness, not just reduced effectiveness
- Taking an extra base subtly changed - you have to push the button to advance to the next base AFTER the runner has reached that base. Previously, you could hold it down and they'd automatically make the turn
- Graphics were fine, I guess - some animation glitches, and I thought the tag animation was WAY too slow, leading to some questionable results of close plays, but it was obviously a quickly-made title, so I think expectations were low.
- The "retreat" hitting approach (where you hold down on the controller when you swing, increasing the chance you will hit the ball in the air) ended up ridiculously overpowered - I was hitting five or more homers a game with the Twins, whose leading home run hitter had 18.
- If anything, the actual game ended up being more of a spiritual successor to Ken Griffey Jr. Presents Major League Baseball, the SNES classic from the mid-90s. The gameplay and graphical style were far more similar to Griffey than to RBI; the only things more RBI-like were the roster construction and the fact that the slow pitch dropped sometimes. Griffey baseball was terrific, and I did not object to that result once I got use to the game, but it was absolutely not what RBI aficionados were expecting.
A small advantage of being the home team, which admittedly comes into play more in straight pitch, is that you know exactly how many runs you need to prevent a slaughter. If you are down 10+ runs and know the game will end if you don't get that to single digits, it leads to more aggression with substitutions.
Quote from: Gantry on 12/01/15, 01:42:40 PM
A small advantage of being the home team, which admittedly comes into play more in straight pitch, is that you know exactly how many runs you need to prevent a slaughter. If you are down 10+ runs and know the game will end if you don't get that to single digits, it leads to more aggression with substitutions.
I've never been slaughtered. I don't know what you mean.
Come to my basement son, and I'll show you. That's right...
Guys, Thank you so much for the insight! I am just about done with my script and am currently starting on the preproduction phase. I am still trying to get a hold of Nightwulf, so if anyone would like to offer their insight into a video about the topics of ratings of RBI players and/or the Tengen Vs. Nintendo lawsuit, I would love to setup some interviews. I am currently located in Florida, but I would be willing to travel or possibly a Skype interview. Either way, Thank you all for the help!
This data is old but there is an RBI Technical category on the wiki:
http://wiki.dee-nee.com/wiki/Category:RBI_Technical
here's a thread where I tried to compile all the stuff we found out about how the game actually works:
https://forums.dee-nee.com/index.php?topic=11729.0
Quote from: mikecross on 12/16/15, 09:42:43 PM
Guys, Thank you so much for the insight! I am just about done with my script and am currently starting on the preproduction phase. I am still trying to get a hold of Nightwulf, so if anyone would like to offer their insight into a video about the topics of ratings of RBI players and/or the Tengen Vs. Nintendo lawsuit, I would love to setup some interviews. I am currently located in Florida, but I would be willing to travel or possibly a Skype interview. Either way, Thank you all for the help!
I could give a shot at a Skype interview (I'm in South Dakota; I assume a Floridian is not looking to vacation here in the winter) on the ratings stuff if you can't find nightwulf. I can't speak as authoritatively, but I know the general process of how folks figured things out and what everything means. I'm also at least somewhat familiar with the ratings in RBI 2 & 3, which use the same setup numerically but are much more strictly stat-based than in the original.
I don't think anyone ever figured out those pitchers Unknown values, seems like they possibly had something to do with CPU pitch selection
I worked at Tengen on RBI, and may be able to help with your history project. Or possibly put you in touch with some of the programmers. Please feel free to PM me.
GUYS, WE'VE GOT A LIVE ONE HERE!
Welcome, Mr. Klug
Indeed, welcome Michael! Did you work with Peter Lipson?
Quote from: fathedX on 02/13/16, 07:10:15 AM
GUYS, WE'VE GOT A LIVE ONE HERE!
Welcome, Mr. Klug
YES
I know Peter, but did not work with him on the first RBI for NES. I started at Tengen about when RBI NES was completed, and actually tested the game at home while the Tengen offices were setup down the street from Atari Games. I was the QA Manager, and worked closely with the development teams on all subsequent versions of RBI. Because I was a baseball fan, a gamer, and had won first place for the United States (lost in the finals to the player from Japan) in an RBI contest, I got to contribute to the RBI series for stats, gameplay, etc. As I recall, I am the leadoff hitter on the Tengen Team.
RBI Baseball Contest article from the Japanese magazine "Young Jump".
I believe the contest site was Lakewood Mall, near Los Angeles.
Great stuff! We should do a new run of those RBI Baseball shirts
Quote from: MichaelKlug on 02/13/16, 11:20:59 AM
I know Peter, but did not work with him on the first RBI for NES. I started at Tengen about when RBI NES was completed, and actually tested the game at home while the Tengen offices were setup down the street from Atari Games. I was the QA Manager, and worked closely with the development teams on all subsequent versions of RBI. Because I was a baseball fan, a gamer, and had won first place for the United States (lost in the finals to the player from Japan) in an RBI contest, I got to contribute to the RBI series for stats, gameplay, etc. As I recall, I am the leadoff hitter on the Tengen Team.
To be immortalized in an RBI baseball game is pretty cool!
Found the Nintendo Power article about the contest:
How much better was the Japanese kid than everyone else?
And what teams were used in the championship game?
In the championship game:
He played with the National League All-Stars.
I played with the American League All-Stars.
Quote from: fightonusc on 02/13/16, 05:31:33 PM
How much better was the Japanese kid than everyone else?
I believe he won every game he played that day.
As the Ninteno Power article stated, he had to get through a tournament of 600 players in Japan.
He likely had more experience from playing Family Stadium (the Namco game RBI is based on), while RBI was released in the states shortly before the contest here.
I think he had an advantage by using the National League all-star team, but also, he won fair-and-square :)
I remember reading about some tournament back in the day where Boston was in the finals, but can't remember the details.
I remember reading that blurb in Nintendo Power when I was a kid
Quote from: MichaelKlug on 02/13/16, 11:20:59 AM
I know Peter, but did not work with him on the first RBI for NES. I started at Tengen about when RBI NES was completed, and actually tested the game at home while the Tengen offices were setup down the street from Atari Games. I was the QA Manager, and worked closely with the development teams on all subsequent versions of RBI. Because I was a baseball fan, a gamer, and had won first place for the United States (lost in the finals to the player from Japan) in an RBI contest, I got to contribute to the RBI series for stats, gameplay, etc. As I recall, I am the leadoff hitter on the Tengen Team.
I actually realized that you were the real deal when I saw your posts partially because I remembered your last name from the Tengen Team. BLAZING SPEED!
How much are we allowed to interrogate you about RBI 2 & 3? Things I am curious about...
1) We found a string that says "HITTING EDITOR" while looking through the RBI 3 ROM but couldn't find where it matched up to actual code. Do you know what that was from?
2) Was there any automation in the player ratings generation in those games? The first one obviously was done by hand, because there's not a direct correlation between the ratings and stats, but 2 & 3 seem fairly deterministic, at least for the BA/Contact and HR/Power combinations (with a few exceptions - Canseco has a high power in RBI 2 despite a lower homer total because of his injury-shortened season), which made me wonder if some of the ratings stuff was scripted somehow.
3) Who was the Cubs fan who beefed up the '84 team?
I will probably come up with even more if you're game.
Quote from: BeefMaster on 02/15/16, 08:51:48 AM
Quote from: MichaelKlug on 02/13/16, 11:20:59 AM
I know Peter, but did not work with him on the first RBI for NES. I started at Tengen about when RBI NES was completed, and actually tested the game at home while the Tengen offices were setup down the street from Atari Games. I was the QA Manager, and worked closely with the development teams on all subsequent versions of RBI. Because I was a baseball fan, a gamer, and had won first place for the United States (lost in the finals to the player from Japan) in an RBI contest, I got to contribute to the RBI series for stats, gameplay, etc. As I recall, I am the leadoff hitter on the Tengen Team.
I actually realized that you were the real deal when I saw your posts partially because I remembered your last name from the Tengen Team. BLAZING SPEED!
How much are we allowed to interrogate you about RBI 2 & 3? Things I am curious about...
1) We found a string that says "HITTING EDITOR" while looking through the RBI 3 ROM but couldn't find where it matched up to actual code. Do you know what that was from?
2) Was there any automation in the player ratings generation in those games? The first one obviously was done by hand, because there's not a direct correlation between the ratings and stats, but 2 & 3 seem fairly deterministic, at least for the BA/Contact and HR/Power combinations (with a few exceptions - Canseco has a high power in RBI 2 despite a lower homer total because of his injury-shortened season), which made me wonder if some of the ratings stuff was scripted somehow.
3) Who was the Cubs fan who beefed up the '84 team?
I will probably come up with even more if you're game.
1. I don't have an answer for the "hitting editor".
2. There was no automation in generating player ratings. I believe I just did those by hand. As you said, games played was taken in to account. i might have that paperwork in the garage, will dig around, and let you know.
3. Maybe because the lead programmer was a Cubs fan :)
I'll contact him, and see if I can get him on these forums to answer questions.
I'll check with Peter and Bill too.
Unfortunately, the lead animator, Greg Williams, and one of the audio guys, Brad Fuller, have passed away.
Peter was super kind and generous with his time with I tracked him down before, man was that 10 years ago?
I remember that 2nd team in the national RBI tournament finals was SF, who played Bo. Have no idea why I remember that or even what tournament it was, which probably means I'm wrong. Want to say it took place in Cali and want to say the blurb was in Nintendo Power.
Oh, you talked with Peter before!
I reached out to him on Facebook, but haven't heard back yet.
Looks like I may not need to contact him, unless we end up doing some kind of group discussion.
I need to get one answer from you, and you need to think long and hard before you answer because you are admittedly going into some VERY dangerous waters, but here goes: Is the early throw BOP (where an error happens when you try to throw before getting the ball) real?
Quote from: fightonusc on 02/16/16, 11:45:10 AM
I need to get one answer from you, and you need to think long and hard before you answer because you are admittedly going into some VERY dangerous waters, but here goes: Is the early throw BOP (where an error happens when you try to throw before getting the ball) real?
With that build up, I though you were going to ask for his view on cargo shorts.
Guy, some topics are just too hot for the RBI board.
Quote from: fightonusc on 02/16/16, 11:45:10 AM
I need to get one answer from you, and you need to think long and hard before you answer because you are admittedly going into some VERY dangerous waters, but here goes: Is the early throw BOP (where an error happens when you try to throw before getting the ball) real?
I asked the Lead Programmer, and will let you know if he provides an answer.
Unfortunately, he is not available to visit the forums at this time.
Quote from: MichaelKlug on 02/16/16, 09:01:25 PM
Quote from: fightonusc on 02/16/16, 11:45:10 AM
I need to get one answer from you, and you need to think long and hard before you answer because you are admittedly going into some VERY dangerous waters, but here goes: Is the early throw BOP (where an error happens when you try to throw before getting the ball) real?
I asked the Lead Programmer, and will let you know if he provides an answer.
Unfortunately, he is not available to visit the forums at this time.
Here is his response... (not sure if that answers your question) :)
No, there is no early throw error. The error is just a random percentage (I don't recall off the top of my head whether it was player based or not - I remember wanting to add it, just can't remember if/when it was added)
Looks like we will be continuing to get more members from the team involved. So, I'll try to have questions answered here.
Your move, broiler
Poor lil fella is going to have his heart broken.
It's crunchy, it breaks easily.
We know the error rates, still seems if you try to throw early something goes haywire and it jacks up the error rate. Maybe the random number generator get messed up.
A few RBI related things found in the garage:
Don't know why the hat picture is upside down...
The Nintendo item is a sticker.
Awesome watch.
Sweet. What's the story with RBI95? Was that a thing?
I seem to remember RBI 93, 94, and 95 for Sega Genesis, but not for NES
Another garage find:
RBI3 Jacket
(begins heist preparations)
But its monogramed with "Mike". Will it fit over a back brace?
I would change my name in order to wear that jacket.
My name is Mike. Just throwing that out there
I've had a McLane jacket for years now, found it at Goodwill. Name was Jason. Left it on there until a teacher called me Jason and I didn't respond.
Quote from: MichaelKlug on 02/26/16, 08:01:50 PM
Quote from: MichaelKlug on 02/16/16, 09:01:25 PM
Quote from: fightonusc on 02/16/16, 11:45:10 AM
I need to get one answer from you, and you need to think long and hard before you answer because you are admittedly going into some VERY dangerous waters, but here goes: Is the early throw BOP (where an error happens when you try to throw before getting the ball) real?
I asked the Lead Programmer, and will let you know if he provides an answer.
Unfortunately, he is not available to visit the forums at this time.
Here is his response... (not sure if that answers your question) :)
No, there is no early throw error. The error is just a random percentage (I don't recall off the top of my head whether it was player based or not - I remember wanting to add it, just can't remember if/when it was added)
Looks like we will be continuing to get more members from the team involved. So, I'll try to have questions answered here.
Interesting. So that question is on the "early throw error" but do we know if there is any programming on the "quick throw error" which occurs when trying to turn a double play and the second baseman clearly is covering the bag when catching the ball but the out doesn't register? These two seems related to me somehow.
Quick throw error is a matter of hit detection I'd believe, that's a clear bug.
if that is the case, is it possible that there is a hit detection glitch with the early throw error as well?
Pretty sure nightwulf looked at the code itself for the early throw and saw zero evidence of anything.
broiler's commitment to the early throw bop is quite impressive.
Quote from: Gantry on 02/29/16, 11:37:31 AM
Pretty sure nightwulf looked at the code itself for the early throw and saw zero evidence of anything.
right. but if there is zero evidence on the quick throw also, and we know the quick throw error exists, then maybe there is a case for the early throw error to exist too?
Nobody has ever dipped into the code of the quick DP throw
if michael has a verdict on this i will accept either way. i changed my stance from crust to sauce so you know i am an open minded guy.
Quote from: broiler on 02/29/16, 12:03:12 PM
if michael has a verdict on this i will accept either way. i changed my stance from crust to sauce so you know i am an open minded guy.
I'll have to check with the programmer for a verdict.
In the meantime, more garage finds:
RBI94 Banner
RBI Bat Pen
Awesome. Gantry needs to start an online RBI museum that showcases some of this weird shit.
Would purchase pen.
Quote from: edfan on 02/29/16, 08:36:27 AM
My name is Mike. Just throwing that out there
Never knew this. I always assumed your name was Eric Davis.
Quote from: MichaelKlug on 02/13/16, 07:05:50 PM
In the championship game:
He played with the National League All-Stars.
I played with the American League All-Stars.
Was his name Joe? Did he cheat?
I bet the answer is "yes" and "hell yes"