I don't know if we already have a thread like this but I figure we should start one.
First up: Brian Downing
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/downibr01.shtml
Carrer OBP = .370 and his 51 WAR (53.8 Offensive WAR which is 147th best in MLB history) basically puts him on the border of a HOF
In his last 3 seasons (age 39-41) he basically got 2 full seasons of plate appearances with 41 HR and 53 2B. .385 OPB and 138 OPS+ at f'ing age 39-41 not surprsingly just DH at that point.
Having that career he was 3 times top 10 in OBP in the AL, but only once an All-Star, he played in an era that did not value the base on balls.
I had no idea he was that valuable.
Bobby Grich was pretty damn stellar for awhile wasn't he? I never thought of him as anything but a replacement level player when I followed baseball.
Quote from: Gantry on 02/05/23, 07:13:17 PM
Bobby Grich was pretty damn stellar for awhile wasn't he? I never thought of him as anything but a replacement level player when I followed baseball.
He's the one I was going to mention. FanGraphs has him at 69 WAR, 8th all time among second basemen, and significantly higher than Biggio, Alomar, and Sandberg (the closest behind him is fellow "should be a Hall of Famer" Lou Whitaker, although Grich amassed his WAR in almost 400 fewer games).
Grich is another guy who was really hurt by the pre-90s appreciation of batting average but not on-base percentage - he walked over 100 times in a couple seasons, and while he had an unspectacular batting average (.266 for his career) he had a really good .371 career OBP. His career OPS+ was 125, and by that stat, he was a below-average hitter just ONCE after his rookie year, and in that year his OPS+ was 98. In the strike-shortened year of '81, he led the league in homers, slugging, and OPS+. He also won four Gold Gloves, so it's not like he was just taking up space out in the field.
Grich, DwEvans, and Randolph are guys with surprisingly high WARs. They were all good for a long time and liked to take walks (which we didn't really give a shit about back then).
Its kind of funny that Dwight Evans and Jim Rice were teammates for so long. Evans has almost 20 more career WAR (67.2 vs 47.7) and Rice is in the HOF and Evans can't get a sniff of it.
Quote from: Shooty on 02/06/23, 11:40:27 AM
Its kind of funny that Dwight Evans and Jim Rice were teammates for so long. Evans has almost 20 more career WAR (67.2 vs 47.7) and Rice is in the HOF and Evans can't get a sniff of it.
KEANU WHOA
That's fucking insane. Didn't Dewey win an MVP and Rookie of the Year, too?
No, that's Fred Lynn. Don't mind me.
Quote from: fknmclane on 02/06/23, 01:26:08 PM
No, that's Fred Lynn. Don't mind me.
It was Fred Lynn. Oops, sorry...
I assumed Dwight's defense put him over the top. He had a great arm so I figured his overall D was amazing. Nope, he has a negative career DWar
Whitaker, Dewey, and Grich were all great and should be considered for the HOF. I think Whitaker will eventually get in, not sure about the other two.
Yeah. How Trammell is in the HOF and Whitaker not makes zero sense. They were pretty much exactly the same player.
Now imagine Lou Whittaker is white...
Quote from: BDawk on 02/06/23, 08:01:42 PM
I assumed Dwight's defense put him over the top. He had a great arm so I figured his overall D was amazing. Nope, he has a negative career DWar
Being a corner outfielder starts with you a negative dWAR right off the top just because it's one of the "easy" positions, and the fact that he only had -3.7 over 20 years in right field indicates that he was above-average defensively (especially early in his career).
For what it's worth, a great arm is really overrated in terms of actual defensive value - you save a whole lot more runs with great range, turning extra-base hits into outs, than you do by cutting down guys on the bases (or preventing them from advancing due to the threat of getting thrown out).
Yeah. Evans was a good defense outfielder. Defensive WAR is really weird to figure out sometimes.
Evans had a 60.5 offensive WAR and a negative 3.7 defensive WAR. But his total WAR was 67.2. So in my mind this says the average right fielder during that time would have had a defensive WAR of negative 10.2. So Evans was better than average defensively.
Quote from: TempoGL on 02/07/23, 06:36:55 AM
Now imagine Lou Whittaker is white...
politics is too much for HOF. Think about all the guys that should/shouldn't be in the HOF and it's not a few people.
Quote from: Brookensrules! on 02/07/23, 05:58:22 PM
Quote from: TempoGL on 02/07/23, 06:36:55 AM
Now imagine Lou Whittaker is white...
politics is too much for HOF. Think about all the guys that should/shouldn't be in the HOF and it's not a few people.
Guys that should/shouldn't be in the HOF is everybody who ever existed
Quote from: GDavis on 02/07/23, 06:06:06 PM
Quote from: Brookensrules! on 02/07/23, 05:58:22 PM
Quote from: TempoGL on 02/07/23, 06:36:55 AM
Now imagine Lou Whittaker is white...
politics is too much for HOF. Think about all the guys that should/shouldn't be in the HOF and it's not a few people.
Guys that should/shouldn't be in the HOF is everybody who ever existed
Are you still thinking?
Quote from: ultimate7 on 02/05/23, 04:22:38 PMI don't know if we already have a thread like this but I figure we should start one.
First up: Brian Downing
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/downibr01.shtml
Carrer OBP = .370 and his 51 WAR (53.8 Offensive WAR which is 147th best in MLB history) basically puts him on the border of a HOF
In his last 3 seasons (age 39-41) he basically got 2 full seasons of plate appearances with 41 HR and 53 2B. .385 OPB and 138 OPS+ at f'ing age 39-41 not surprsingly just DH at that point.
Having that career he was 3 times top 10 in OBP in the AL, but only once an All-Star, he played in an era that did not value the base on balls.
I had no idea he was that valuable.
FINALLY!!!
Thank you, Ultimate. Downing was totally unappreciated in his time. Plus, he played catcher before moving to the outfield.
And he had one of the earliest open batting stances I can remember. Bodybuilder physique and aviator glasses, he always seemed like an oddball when I watched the California Angels on KTLA. Dude could rake
I forgot I had started this thread. Next up Lou Whitaker, though he may not be quite as underrated as some of the others mentioned. He is overshadowed by Trammell and other Tigers from that era for reasons.
Career WAR of 75 which is 84th all-time (tied with Johnny Bench) ahead of Trammell and many other HOFers. His 1981-1993 run of 13 straight seasons of 3.5+ WAR. Consistently strong offensively at a position known for defense in that era.
And to compare him to my rooting interest of the same era, he was usually ahead of Ryno's in OPS and defense with not quite as much power. He'd probably be in the HOF if he did backflips (that one is for Jim) or had a bigger personality.
Yeah. How Trammell is in the Hall, and Lou not is fucking baffling. They were essentially the same player. They should have went in together.
Quote from: Shooty on 12/05/23, 06:56:36 AMYeah. How Trammell is in the Hall, and Lou not is fucking baffling. They were essentially the same player. They should have went in together.
Quote from: TempoGL on 02/07/23, 06:36:55 AMNow imagine Lou Whittaker is white...
Yup
Lol. Didn't even notice I wrote that before.
At least I'm consistent.
121K posts for me, almost all of which are the same three statements/opinions
I'll keep this going while I have some time. Bobby Grich's turn, arguably better than Whitaker, in my last Bill James book from about 20 years ago, he had Grich 1 spot ahead of Whitaker (I think 12 and 13 at the time).
71 WAR and he did that in a bit more than 13 full seasons. Unappreciated in his own era, though he was a 6 time all-star, he never finished top 7 in MVP voting. In the 1981 strike shortened season head lead the AL in SLG and OPS+. Crazy for a 2B and still finished 14th in MVP voting behind 2 RP and Steve McCatty (who I'd never heard of). Ironically Rickey Henderson and Dwight Evans finished 2-3 in the voting and basically tied for highest WAR but finished behind Rollie Fingers who did have a damn good season.
Back to Grich, he had 5 straight 6+ WAR years 1972-76, unfortunately playing with the Orioles after their WS years. While he only hit .300 once from 1972-83 he had .375 OBP and 129 OPS+, extraordinary numbers for a 2B in that ERA. He probably would have about 10 Silver Slugger award had they started the award in 1970 instead of 1980.
His final 3 seasons 1984-86 he played about 2 full seasons worth, I am guessing injuries setting in, still had OBP of .355 and OPS+ of 110 retiring after the infamous 1986 season.
Dwight Evans led the AL in Walks 3 times, twice led in OPS, and 3 times was over .400 OBP. Consistently very good from age 22 to age 37, in addition to his strong offensive numbers, he won 8 gold gloves. 3 times he was top 5 in MVP voting. Career WAR of 67 despite negative career dWAR (not sure how that happens with 8 gold gloves)
Quote from: ultimate7 on 12/07/23, 10:29:50 PMCareer WAR of 67 despite negative career dWAR (not sure how that happens with 8 gold gloves)
We discussed his negative dWAR a bit on the last page of this thread. Some of it is just that corner outfielders get a big penalty to dWAR immediately just for the position they play. Some of it also might be that the eye test just isn't as good for outfield defense as it is for infield defense - a big arm, which is always impressive to Gold Glover voters, is not nearly as valuable as even a small improvement in range, because the arm simply doesn't get used that much (there's value in scaring guys away from running, but still not as much as turning doubles into outs by catching them). Because there are so few potential outfield defensive plays in every game, it's hard to really tell how much range a guy has (nearly all his actual value!) without aggregating a lot of games' worth of chances to see how many he gets to.
I think Kirby Puckett is another guy for whom Baseball-Reference's WAR doesn't love his defense despite a lot of Gold Gloves - he had a great arm and made spectacular plays (partially because he could rob homers over the Metrodome's 8' centerfield wall) but he didn't actually make as many normal outs in the field as you would have expected from a fielder with his reputation.
I figured his arm likely factored into the GGs, but certainly wouldn't add as much value as covering more ground.
Jose Cruz is someone I had in mind when I stared this thread. I missed the prime of his career as I'm sure most of us did. He had 54 Career WAR as a late bloomer (50 WAR from age 27 on).
He played a lot of his career in the Astrodome which made his raw numbers look relatively mild, but his first 12 years in Houston (1975-86 age 27-38) he had a 127 OPS+. Like some others mentioned in this thread, he had a good walk rate and had a .362 OBP in that timeframe.
Only a 2-time all-star, like related to his Astrodome numbers, he did finish 3rd in MVP voting in 1980, though it was from his best years 1976-78 were all better offensively and 1983-84 (both top8 MVP voting years) were his 2 best WAR years each at 6+. In the 9 seasons from 76-84 he was only sub 4 WAR for 2 seasons (but he would have been there in 1981 without the strike).
He was an old man (38) on the 86 team, yet still a key piece on that team. In the heart breaking 1980 NLCS against the Phillies, he was Intentionally walked 4 times and had a .609 OBP in the series and a .93 WPA, meaning he basically contributed a win in the 5 games series.
Wow... I had no idea Cruz was that good.
Quote from: BeefMaster on 12/09/23, 08:46:11 AMWow... I had no idea Cruz liked to "Cruuuuuuuuuz" through the Whataburger Drive Thru when he's in a hurry
I'm going to keep going, despite my plan to space these out. Next up is the first pitcher.
Rick Reuschel, a player I grew up watching on the Cubs, but also late in his career. He won 214 games and had 69.5 WAR, arguable HOF numbers, though I never thought he was at that level and he'll never get in.
Big Daddy was a 3-time all-star and twice finished 3rd in Cy Young voting. He won 20 games in 1977 led the league in CG and SHO (12/4) in 1987 at age 38, he was an all-star in 1989 at age 40 when he went 17-8 after going 19-11 the previous year. Never huge numbers but generally a low HR, low BB pitcher twice posting ERA+ of over 150, though often around 120. For you grid players, he did hit 2,015 strikeouts.
Depsite his size he was a good athlete, he won 2 Gold Gloves and was a solid hitting pitcher with 4 HR and 4 3B in his career.
This is a great thread. Thank you.
Also had no idea jose Cruz could really play.
Big Daddy was great, consistent too I believe. Very underrated.
Next up: Chet Lemon
Chet had a solid 15-year career with 55 WAR. In his 7 seasons prime, 1978-1984 he was an all-star 3 times and had 135 OPS+ over that span with .375 OBP. He continued putting up solid seasons playing an elite CF (9th in Career Range Factor for CF, 3 times top 10 dWAR though no Gold Gloves) where he played through 1987 until he became a DH and par-time player his last 2 years 89-90.
Arcade Player from just before our time: Vada Pinson
In Vada's 1st 10 full seasons (1959-68) he had 1855 hits(including 335 2B, 185 HR, and 96 3B) with 4 seasons over 200 hits, and an OPS+ of 119 and 54 Career WAR. He was a gold glove winning CF but was no longer with Cincy by the Big Red Machine days of the mid-70s. After leaving the Reds he had a few more decent seasons, but started to drop off after age 33 and only got to 2757 career hits, he also had over 300 career SB. He was 3rd in NL MVP voting in 1961 when he was on his only pennant winning team, but struggle in the '61 series. Not a HOF but certainly had that trajectory for his first decade.
Another Arcade player: Cesar Cedeno
Much like Jose Cruz, lost a lot of raw numbers due to his time in the Astrodome. He had 53 career WAR and was a 4 time all-star. 1972-73 seasons were both MVP level seasons, 157 OPS+ hitting .320 each season and 47 HR over the 2 years. He also won 5 straight gold gloves in CF 1972-76 and had 550 career SB. 8 seasons at 120+ OPS and another 3 at 110+ pretty solid for a CF.
Quote from: ultimate7 on 09/24/24, 07:56:01 PMAnother Arcade player: Cesar Cedeno
Much like Jose Cruz, lost a lot of raw numbers due to his time in the Astrodome. He had 53 career WAR and was a 4 time all-star. 1972-73 seasons were both MVP level seasons, 157 OPS+ hitting .320 each season and 47 HR over the 2 years. He also won 5 straight gold gloves in CF 1972-76 and had 550 career SB. 8 seasons at 120+ OPS and another 3 at 110+ pretty solid for a CF.
Plus he led the league in manslaughters during that period.
How many we talking?
Just 1. But that puts him in the top 0.1% in MLB history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%A9sar_Cede%C3%B1o
Feels like he wasn't the best person:
On December 11, 1973, when he was 22 years old, Cedeño was involved in an incident in his native Dominican Republic in which a gun discharged in a motel room, killing a 19-year-old woman who was in the room with him. Authorities said Cedeño and the woman were drinking and playing with a gun when the gun fired, killing the 19-year-old.[5] He was initially charged with voluntary manslaughter[19] and held in prison without bail, while his lawyers negotiated for a reduction of the charge to involuntary manslaughter.[20] He was held for 20 days before he was released on bail.[21] He was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter and fined $100.[22] Cedeño's reputation with fans suffered greatly for the remainder of his career,[22] and Cedeño thereafter never achieved a popularity with fans commensurate with his formidable on-field productivity.[5]
In 1992, Cedeño was charged with battery in Orlando, Florida, in an incident involving his then-pregnant girlfriend, Pamela Lamon. This followed a 1988 incident involving Lamon in which Cedeño was charged with assault, causing bodily injury, and resisting arrest.
I had no idea either that Cedeno was that good or that he killed someone.
Or that he was that good at killing someone
That $100 fine probably made him think twice about killing anyone else.
I don't even remember Cesar Cedeño, I think most of my baseball knowledge has left me. Getting old is weird...
He played the Joker in the original Batman series as well.
Quote from: Shooty on 09/26/24, 09:20:03 AMHe played the Joker in the original Batman series as well.
It is my personal belief that the world would be a better place if Cesar Romero's performance was considered the definitive Joker.