I hate to do this to all you cub fans, but you guys got Dusty from us and have been making a lot of deals in the off-season (karros, bako, miller, relimger, ect) so I don't feel so bad. Plus it involves two RBI'ers so its relavant for the forum.
Sweet Lou Whitaker received a less than 5 percent vote for his first shot in being voted into the hall of fame. His numbers are VERY SIMILLAR to Ryne Snadberg, who is up for voting this year. Becuase their numbers are so close and becuase Lou got so few votes for the hall, Ryno dosen't ahve a chance in hell getting in. Maybe both might go someday, but it'll be a while
s. free
Sweet Lou Whitaker
AVG .276
G 2390
AB 8570
R 1386
H 2369
2B 420
3B 65
HR 244
RBI 1084
BB 1197
K 1099
OBP .363
SLG .426
Ryne Sandberg
AVG .285
G 2164
AB 8385
R 1318
H 2386
2B 403
3B 76
HR 282
RBI 1061
BB 761
K 1260
OBP .344
SLG .452
sandberg probably has a much better chance than does whittaker. Whether to blame it on racism or the inexplicable fact that people find the cubs endearing, I'm not sure....but I just see him as being much more likely to end up in the hall. Maybe it's just consolation for playing on a worthless team for fifteen years...
By the way, where are you getting all the voting information from? I'd like to have a look at all that....
Good points sucka, but Sandberg is going to get in. You have to remember that he was the best 2B in baseball for quite some time, and that buys a lot. Whitaker was a solid, but not great player. Stats you forgot:
All-Stars - Sandberg 10, Whitaker 5
MVPs - Sandberg 1, Whitaker 0
Top5 in MVP Voting - Sandberg 3, Whitaker 0
Gold Gloves - Sandberg 9, Whitaker 3
Stolen Bases - Sandberg 344, Whitaker 143
Whitaker never really had outstanding years, which hurt him quite a bit.
In the "big 4" stats of Runs/Hits/HRs/RBIs - Whitaker was in the top10 only 4 times in his entire career. Sandberg was top10 23 times...
Nice job Gantry! Here's some more sweet lou stats....
One of two 2nd base (joe morgan) to play in more than 2,000 games, hit over 200 homers and log more than 2,000 hits.
was one half of the longest double play combination in major league history
world series rings
sweet lou 1 Ryno 0
1978 rookie of the year
LED SECOND BASEMEN IN GAMES, 1980S: 1418
LED SECOND BASEMEN IN AT BATS, 1980S: 5282
LED SECOND BASEMEN IN RUNS, 1980S: 814
LED SECOND BASEMEN IN HITS, 1980S: 1452
LED SECOND BASEMEN IN HOMERUNS, 1980S: 143
LED SECOND BASEMEN IN RBI, 1980S: 619
LED SECOND BASEMEN IN RUNS CREATED, 1980S: 821
LED SECOND BASEMEN IN OFFENSIVE WINNING PERCENTAGE, 1980S: .587
LED SECOND BASEMEN IN TOTAL BASES, 1980S: 2219
LED SECOND BASEMEN IN PLATE APPEARANCES, 1980S: 6042
LED SECOND BASEMEN IN OUTS, 1980S: 4051
Basically my point in the original posting still holds. Both Ryno and Sweet lou have great stats you can point too, and their playing careers are identical. Each man has their individual stand out points but one does not outweigh the other. They really are comparable players. You can massage the data anyway you want, but basically their were the same caliber of player.
If Ryno gets in after sweet lou gets only 5% of the necessary vote, in my opinion its total bullshit.
Here's something else to look at. Jeff Kent right now is not a 1st ballot guy yet his numbers are very simillar to sweet lou and ryno. If Kent has 3 more great seasons he's a first ballot guy for sure. But he still needs at least 3 more seasons. I think lou and rno will eventually get in the hall, but a first ballot honor is for the very special special players. Ryno is not at the joe morgan level, therefore he shouldn't go in the first ballot.
Sorry to go off like this but there are only a couple of things that baseball does that pisses me off. One of them is the lack of standards when deciding 1st ballot honors. I have been like this ever since Kirby got the 1st ballot honors (now i know I pissed people off with that one) but Kirby is not a 1st ballot guy. Mays, DiMaggio, Mantle, Arron, Puckett??? Which one of those names doesn't belong.
Don't worry about going off, it's good discussion. And the forums have been dead lately anyway. All points I bring up are in good faith. And onto the rebuttal:
<<< One of two 2nd base (joe morgan) to play in more than 2,000 games, hit over 200 homers and log more than 2,000 hits. >>>
Sandberg - 2164 games, 2386 hits and 282 homers. Does he not qualify because he played a season at 3B?
<<< world series rings
sweet lou 1 Ryno 0 >>>
Can't argue with that one. Also have to add the best 2B and 7 hitter in RBI Baseball!
<<< LED SECOND BASEMEN IN GAMES, 1980S: 1418 >>>
But all those stats you just posted for Whitaker are all tied together. He played more than any other second baseman in the 80s, and therefore led the 80s in all stats at 2B, plain and simple. If Sandberg started in 1977 like Whitaker, he would have most of those. I know you weren't making a point with this one...
<<< Basically my point in the original posting still holds. Both Ryno and Sweet lou have great stats you can point too, and their playing careers are identical. Each man has their individual stand out points but one does not outweigh the other. They really are comparable players. You can massage the data anyway you want, but basically their were the same caliber of player. >>>
This is where I completely disagree. Whitaker was a good player for a very long time. Sandberg was considered the best offensive and defensive 2B in baseball for a long period of time. That's the difference. At no point in his career (perhaps once in 1983) was Whitaker considered the best at his position. In 19 years he was never thought of as one of the 5 best players in the American League. From 1984-1992 Ryne Sandberg was the best 2B in baseball...
Remember too that Sandberg retired then came back for 2 mediocre seasons. Those 1000 ABs in 96-97 hurt his overall numbers and let Whitaker catch up with career stats...
<<< If Ryno gets in after sweet lou gets only 5% of the necessary vote, in my opinion its total bullshit. >>>
I can't argue this one... But if I were a sportswriter I would vote Sandberg in. Whitaker would not get my vote...
<<< Ryno is not at the joe morgan level, therefore he shouldn't go in the first ballot. >>>
My argument doesn't have anything to do with the first ballot, I'm not even sure how all that works. My apologies if that's what you originally meant by your post. But I say Sandberg is the best second baseman of the last 20 years, and he will be in Cooperstown. And Sandberg deserves to be in the Hall, while Lou Whitaker does not...
Can't argue about Kirby's first ballot justification, but on impressive stat is that he had the highest career average for a right hander (.318) since DiMaggio...
EDIT - More Puckett Goodness
10 All-Stars in 12 seasons
Finished Top 10 in MVP voting 7 times
6 Gold Gloves
Best player on two World Series Champs
Granted he's not Ruth or Mantle, but a hell of a player....
I have to agree with Gantry. Ryno's getting in on the first ballot. He was the best at his position. Sweet Lou got a lot of hype because of the double play combo with Trammell. Unfortunately, Trammell was a poor showing when his ballot came up. Maybe he'll make it in as a manager. I'd love to see it. If Trammel and Whitaker can go in together (as one person), I think they're a lock for the HOF.
If the HOF took RBI numbers, Whitaker would get in without a problem. He could be the best #7 hitter in the game. I still vote Chili first, but Whitaker is right up there with him. There isn't another 2B out there that is better than Whitaker. After all, I sub Ryno because he's a stupid righty and a Tony Gwynn lefty hit to move Raines over to 2nd for a Dale Murphy 3-run homer is just something that Ryno will never be able to do.
WHITAKER FOR THE RBI HALL OF FAME!!!
Gantry,
Thanks for pointing out this mistake... <<< One of two 2nd base (joe morgan) to play in more than 2,000 games, hit over 200 homers and log more than 2,000 hits. >>>
I beleive the database that I pulled this from was before Ryno made his comeback. Still embarrassing though.
You bring up great points and they are worth considering but I still have to stick to my guns. Sandberg was the better 2nd baseman during the 80's but not by much. And in my opinion, it really isn't saying all that much. Its like saying that your the best of something when the quality is so-s0. I think he's a hall of famer but but first ballot. Keep in mind, being a first ballot is something that is saved for the very very best.
If you ask baseball people nationally (although not in chi - town) to name a couple of great 2nd basemen I guareente you that Ryno is rarely brought up. Morgan, Maz, Lajoie, and hornsby are what come to mind. Ryno is good, but not in the same company as these guys. However, I think its fucking great that you'll good to bat for a home town guy. PLus you got some good knowledge.
When you look at all-stars, gold gloves, MVPs and league leading categories year-in-and-year-out it's Sandberg over Whitaker by a decent margin. I'll leave it at that...
I'm pretty sure more baseball people would name Sandberg over Mazeroski at the very least and possible Nap Lajoie when talking about the great second basemen, but then again I don't leave Chicago very much...
I'm completely ignorant on the first ballot thing, and won't go there...
And I'm an idiot, Chili Davis is the best #7 hitter...
Good Thread people...
this was a good debate...i just wanted to refresh it in the forums considering the voting for the hall yesterday......Ryno will get into the hall but I feel that he was undeserving of a 1st ballot honor.
Is the Hall of Fame really the Hall of Fame lately? There seems to be a lot of players that get in, that don't deserve to be there. It is supposed to be reserved for the best-of-the-best...not the very good. Gary Carter just got in this year after 6 tries. My question is..what changed? Why didn't he get in the first 5 times? His stats are the same. The only thing that I can think of is that the competition isn't as good. If a guy isn't good enough to get in on the first ballot he doesn't deserve to get in. Next year when the Eck and Paul Molitor (my personal favorite player of the 80's/90's) get enshrined, it will be because they were the best-of-the-best.
The Sweet Lou/Ryno subject has been exhausted however I will say this...Ryno dominated his poisition for a decade and was the best 2B in the majors. Lou never dominated anything. He was good...even very good, but NOT great. When comparing the two Ryno stands heads and shoulders above Sweet Lou in every offensive (except OBP, because of the BB's) and defensive category. Ryno is undoubtedly get in. EVERY player that received more than 44% of the votes on the first ballot, eventually got in...every single one. That is why Ryno will be in. Sorry but Sweet Lou doesn't have a chance. He was good but wasn't a dominant force during his career.
Really the only question is...will John Lockhart get in the Fame??? I say YES!!!!!
Honestly I like the system the way it is. I think its nessary to have some type of classification within the hall itself. Having a two tier system of 1st ballot and non 1st ballot really works. Here's an example...Yogi Berra and Johnny Bench. Both men deserve to be in the hall of fame, yet clearly one catcher is head and shoulders better than the other, that is Johnny Bench. Bench was a better player in every aspect of the game. So the hall of fame allows both to be inducted but will give Bench first ballot status because he was the greatest at his position ever. Its baseballs highest honor and it is reserved for its truely greatest players. The hall of fame is for the great ones, 1st ballot status are for its heros.
Also, the voting causes such great debates to happen during the off season such as this one. It really generates alot of buzz to get people pumped for the next season
The system is probably as good as it can be, but I don't like the fact that "pretty good" players get in. Gary Carter was never dominant. I guess Eddie Murray has the career numbers, but when did he dominate? Ozzie Smith was a pretty shitty hitter, but he made good plays in the field and did flips, so he got in. They should be able to have a year when nobody gets in, if nobody deserves it, right?
its all based on numbers
i think, if G. Carter could get in the hall of fame, maybe he shouldnt ground out every time in RBI...
http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/kurkjian_tim/1518489.html
Here is a top 20 list from tim kurtijan. I can't beleive that biggio is ahead of ryno. Wow, this is a really terrible top 20.
1. Rogers Hornsby
2. Joe Morgan
3. Eddie Collins
4. Nap Lajoie
5. Jackie Robinson
6. Charlie Gehringer
7. *Roberto Alomar
8. *Craig Biggio
9. Ryne Sandberg
10. Rod Carew
11. Frankie Frisch
12. Nellie Fox
13. Bobby Doerr
14. Bobby Grich
15. Tony Lazzeri
16. Billy Herman
17. Lou Whitaker
18. Red Schoendienst
19. *Jeff Kent
20. Willie Randolph
Not only does that suck, I can't believe that Kent is only 19. Ummm Biggio over Sandberg is ludacris and Biggio over Kent is terrible too.
Maybe Biggio gets extra points with the media for being so thrifty with his equipment use since he keeps his same batting helmet for so long. I'm sure he saved his team several hundred dollars in equipment fees! Very honorable.
All that money saved goes down the drain because of all the pine tar they have to buy and all the laundry bills cleaning it from his jersey.
I just reviewed the list and realized that Bobby Grich is listed as the 14th best 2nd basemen of all time. While I respect Bobby's presence on RBI, I sub for his sorry butt before he ever takes a swing. Ruppert Jones for Grich every time. There is no way that Grich is better than Jeff Kent or Sweet Lou Whitaker either!!! Lou was better in real life and is STILL better in RBI. Two thumbs down for this list of 20!
btw...excellent call by Big Hath on the Biggio cleaning bills
i just printed this list out, ate a chilito, and shit all over it!
I don't know, edf, Grich had some pretty good numbers for a 2B in a semi-deadball era. Here are his HR numbers from '72 to '86: 12, 12, 19, 13, 13, 7, 6 (only 52 games - injury), 30, 14, 22 (this was in '81 strike shortened year in which he would have hit approximately 36), 19, 16, 18, 13 and 9. The 9 was in '86 which was the last year of his career and where his RBI stats come from.
He was also a six-time all star and won four gold gloves and his 22 HR's in '81 actually led the AL.
I know that Bobby Grich was a decent player, but he's listed above some pretty good names. Plus, I'd say that the early 80's were more of a dead ball era than the 70's (where Grich was in his prime). It was not uncommon for a guy to hit 40+ homers in the 70's and George Foster hit 52 in '77. In the 80's the big home run guys were hitting 25-35 homers a year until 1987, when Big Mac, Dawson, and George Bell all came near 50. Plus, Whitaker topped 20 homers in 4 different years. He was also an all star in 5 consecutive seasons from 83-87, and probably should have been again in 89 when he had his best offensive year!
They probably both deserve to be on the list, but I just question where they fall. I'd put Lou much closer to the middle of the pack than near the end and vice versa with Grich
After looking at the list again, I really don't see that much difference in any of the players once you get past the top ten.