For those of you in the COTUT, what do you think about disallowing the intentional drop? For those of you unfamiliar w/ it, the intentional drop (runners on only) is where you allow the ball to drop right before your position player (on a pop-up) and then quickly throw the ball to the appropriate base to get a double play or, quite possibly, a triple play. I know this can't really be monitored during the tourney, but I think the infield fly rule should definitely be a rule (mutual agreement between players), but the intentional drop is foolish. Furthermore, we know there is the occasional 'blunder' on a pop-up or fly ball...this should just be played out as is.
I surely agree, I think the intentional drop should be banned. I would also be a proponent of not doing the vile "first and third basestealing" trick.
I have to disagree on the first and third base stealing 'trick'...If your technique and expertise is good enough, you should know how to not let this happen.
First and third defense is part of the game...if you havent figured out how to stop baserunners from running wild than you probably have no chance in the tourny... intentionally dropping the ball is one thing that should not be allowed seeing as how the programmers omitted the infield fly rule.
i have to disagree. the intentional drop is part of the game, if you are so unfortunate as to hit an infield fly with runners on, TOO BAD. personally, i think the infield fly rule is a bad rule in real baseball, too, how come you're allowed to turn two on a ground ball, but not on a shitty pop up, but i suppose that's another debate for a different forum. see you at the tourney!
Exactly right, Gwynn. If you don't know how to stop the double steal, you're in for a quick outskie in the tourney...Anyhoo, lotsa luck on getting a runner to 3rd against me. Russell Cox is coming straight with a few no-no's and shutout ball in the tourney.
Ahh, good ol' Gantry, I've heard a lot about you...the West Suburban Chicago Boilermaker. On to your reply...
Refresher: the infield fly rule says that, if there are runners on 1st and 2nd base (at a minimum) and less than 2 out and the batter pops up to the infield, the batter is automatically and instantly out and the runners can stay right where they are. (They may try to advance at their own risk, but if you think it through, you'll see they'd have to be crazy to try.)
The underlying reason for the rule is that the fielding team would have no trouble converting the pop-up into a double play by letting it fall and throwing to 3rd and 2nd.
Allowing the intentional drop is as absurd as is having no outfield fence or allowing balks to happen (no balks in Ribbie though).
The infield fly is critical. It stops defensive players from dropping pop flies in order to turn an easy double play. With no infield fly, the runners are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If there is no infield fly rule, the runners must wait to see if the ball is dropped in order to advance, and they would be easily doubled off. Or in the alternative, the infielder could catch the ball then double off the advancing runners. It puts two outs in the discretion of the infielder, which would be completely stupid and unfair. The situation doesn't arise that much anyways.
Let's examine some situations:
1. Suppose you know the fielder is going to catch the ball. Then, the runners will just stay on their bases. Result: 1 out.
2. Suppose you know the fielder is going to drop the ball. Then, everybody will run to the next base (at least). Result: nobody out.
So that leaves the situation where nobody knows if the fielder is going to let the ball drop. Yes, if all the runners stay put, the fielder will let the ball bounce (hopefully not too high!) and two well-executed throws will force out two runners. Yes, if any of the runners takes off for the next base the fielder will catch the ball and double him up.
But, what if the runners use discretion? What if they hang close enough to their respective bases to avoid getting doubled-up? Can the fielder always guarantee a double play by letting the ball drop? It doesn't matter. As in Life/Baseball/Ribbie there are rules. The intentional drop, without question, is preposterous.
well in defense of "if you can't stop first and third, you have no chance" - the reason I cannot stop it is because it was banned in all NES baseball games by my friends and I since around 1988 - you'd have trouble with something you hadn't seen in 14 years, too!
This is a very serious and delicate issue that I originally brought up to Russellcox a few days ago. Since then, he has "gone off" on the intentional drop (and with well supported reason I must add). However, I also agree with HoJoFan. It's simply a part of RBI.
Whether or not the intentional drop is allowed in real baseball, it is allowed in RBI without penalty. The following are the current reasons as to why the intentional drop is allowed in the COTUT at this point in time.
1. It's a part of the game. Let's face it right now. RBI is not perfect. Through the wall homers, mis-called foul balls, unpreventable bops, bases not being covered, and the ball being thrown into the stands. Just a few of the many glitches and programming errors in RBI. And of course, added to this list is the intentional drop. The COTUT is not out to change the game. This is the biggest defender of the intentional drop in our tournament. We don't want to, nor can we (successfully) change the way the game is made/played.
2. Prohibiting the intentional drop provides added judgement to the supervisors of the tournament. When is the drop intentional or unintentional? The supervisor is the one who would have to make that call. And that would be no easy call for anybody. Errors do occur and mistakes do happen. It shouldn't be on the supervisor to decide what is an error or intentional. That's just way too difficult to call.
Therefore, the added difficulty of the supervisors and the fact that we aren't out to change the game are the two biggest defenders of the intentional drop in the COTUT.
To be fair though, we will be sending out an e-mail over the next couple of days to all participants in the COTUT. This e-mail will involve a poll as to whether the intentional drop should be allowed or prohibited. If there is an overwhelming response that it should be prohibited, then we will be more than happy to outlaw the intentional drop.
SmokedUBad
www.dee-nee.com/rbi/mbeales - The Official R.B.I. Baseball COTUT
I for one feel the intentional drop should be allowed. If RBI allows the intentional drop then the COTUT should allow the intentional drop. and anyways both players can take advantage of the infield fly so no one has an unfair advantage by allowing the infield fly so the infield fly SHOULD BE ALLOWED.
Also, the first and third base stealing MUST be allowed. If your good enough. then you won't let people steal. and if you can't pick people off then your just not good enough for RBI.
I personally believe that the intentional drop should stay. I am aware that it is a rule in Major League Baseball and I personally am in favor of it in those games. But I see way too many problems happening if we make this a rule. If a person drops it, and continues to go through with a double play because they honestly forget and a run scores out of it, what do we do as the supervisors of the COTUT. Is that worthy of a game forfeit? You are also asking a supervisor to make a judgement call. This could win or lose a game, I don't think the game should be decided by what a supervisor would do. Now if people agree before hand not to do it to each other, that is fine, but the supervisors of the tournament will not enforce it. This is quite a debate and is a flaw in RBI. This would be a lot easier if the game would call an infield fly rule itself.
DXXPAC321
www.dee-nee.com/rbi/mbeales - The Official R.B.I. Baseball COTUT
<<< Ahh, good ol' Gantry, I've heard a lot about you...the West Suburban Chicago Boilermaker. On to your reply... >>>
Not sure who you were talking to Russel (hojofan?) but I've yet to chime in on this issue...
I can see the problems involved with interpreting the dropped double-play. That being said, I will never use the dropped double-play as an advantage. In fact, I only take one out on a BOPed fly ball as well. I just think the infield fly rule should be enforced, part of the game or not...
If people do it to me, so be it. But I'm not taking two on shallow fly balls, BOP or otherwise...
My apologies to you, Gantry...Yer name pops up so many times in the forum so it's embedded in my brain. I should have never stooped so low to call you a 'Boilermaker'. Quite frankly, yer one of my heros. For all I know, you may be a living saint.
Anyhoo, nice reply and sorry for the blunder.
Ain't no thang Russell... All good discussion is welcome and never fear to call me out strictly on my lofty status (in this little universe anyway)...
Have you given thought to the intentional "bop". I have played with this rule before. Basically the intentional drop is against the rules, but if the defensive player can pull off the intentional "bop" (ie. throwing at the exact time the ball would be caught) then they have a shot at turning the double.
It sort of combines the two views. Intentional drops are outlawed, but if the defensive player is skilled enough, he could possibly turn two. It keeps everyone on their toes.
Hold on! you can force bop?!?!? I'm gonna try this technique the second i get home.
Also, my stance on this is that you cannot legislate the intentional drop rule, but i do think it is a matter of honor among serious rbi'ers that you don't intentionally drop the ball to turn the deuce.
GDavis, I agree with you 100%. It's just impossible to legislate fairly because in the end it's a judgment call that would come from the supervisor. I would recommend that both players honestly agree that they won't pull the intentional drop before the series if they have a problem with it.
Big Hath, I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Could you possibly be more specific?
SmokedUBad
www.dee-nee.com/rbi/mbeales - The Official R.B.I. Baseball COTUT
The e-mail for the vote on the intentional drop was sent to all COTUT players 24 hours ago. Since that time we have received a grand total of 23 votes. 14 votes have been in favor of allowing the intentional drop while 9 have been in favor of prohibiting the intentional drop.
Jeff and I decided that a 2/3 majority vote should be required in order to amend the rules and regulations of the COTUT to prohibit the intentional drop. This means that more than 12 votes in favor of allowing the ID would mathematically make a 2/3 majority impossible for those in favor of prohibiting the intentional drop (since all 36 players were polled). Hence, the vote is techinically over since we already have 14 votes in favor of allowing the ID. Therefore, the intentional drop will be allowed in the Second Biannual R.B.I. Baseball COTUT.
I will keep the poll open until midnight Wednesday (giving everybody more than 3 days to cast their vote). I will then post the official results of the vote here and will send out an e-mail to all players letting them know of the final numbers regarding the intentional drop vote.
SmokedUBad
www.dee-nee.com/rbi/mbeales - The Official R.B.I. Baseball COTUT
i second what the big ball of fire is saying... intentional drop shouldnt even be an issue... it is absurd that you guys are going to play a tournament without the infield fly rule... whether self-imposed or not...
All I have to say is that the intentional drop is something that my little brother would do in an ill-fated attempt to beat me in a game of RBI. Those who have to rely on the intentional drop for a cheap dp should have to suffer the same fate as my little bro did.......WEDGIE!!!
We here at the RBI TEXAS Contingent hold very high standards and are committed to excellence. Therefore, we would never exploit such a ridiculous ruling. This goes against the TEXAS RBI creed.
There is the occasional 'Canseco' aka 'Bonk on the head', but this is an 'honest' error. Or the missed call on second when a double play is turned (this is most likely due to the SS or 2B not making it there in time or the swift button pressing of the player). These are part of the game. The intentional drop, however, is just that, 'intentional'.
I will play the rules in the COTUT that are made by my friends in Chi-town, but when you come to our country for the Championship of TEXAS Tournament (COTT) (this is larger than the Universe by the way), be ready to live and breathe by the TEXAS creed.
Here is my take once again on the intentional drop. Mike and I do not agree with it whatsoever, but we do not feel that there is a fair way to determine a penalty if someone does happen to do it whether on purpose or on accident. Keep in mind, we have organized the largest RBI tournament in history, it isn't easy, and we are trying to do are best to please everyone. And considering the vote was in favor of keeping it the way it is, we are going to have to go with the popular demand and keep it in the COTUT. My suggestion to everyone who is against it, is to talk to your opponent before hand and promise to each other that you will not do it to one another. Kinda like a code of honor. The only problem with this is, if the promise is broken, we as supervisors will not do anything about it. But I would like to say that Mike and I do not plan on doing it, unless of course our opponent does it to us first. This is a good topic and I am glad to see a lot of interest in the tournament. I can't wait to see you all there who have joined. It's going to be quite a weekend.
DXXPAC321
www.dee-nee.com/rbi/mbeales - The Official R.B.I Baseball COTUT
The final votes are in for the RBI COTUT for the controversal intentional drop. We have 18 votes in favor of the intentional drop and 11 votes against it. So the intentional drop can be used in the tournament if someone feels to do so. Once again I would like to make clear that we are not in favor of it, but we feel it would be difficult to make a call on this. We hope all of the players will use the honor system and not do it to one another, but once again we will not make a call against it. Thanks for everyones votes and opinions on this subject.
DXXPAC321
www.dee-nee.com/rbi/mbeales - The Official R.B.I. Baseball COTUT
Hey guys...just checking up on this again. I am dismayed that there were enough morally loose votes to allow the intentional drop. By the by, this may not be the largest RBI tournament in history. I remember reading in a VERY early issue of Nintendo Power about an RBI Baseball tournament that occurred in (I believe) California. It was probably pretty big. If anyone has the first few issues of Nintendo Power still lying around, I remember that the column was near the end of the magazine, on the upper right hand corner of a page, with...I think, a green border. Shockingly, this knowledge was wiped from my RBI subconscience until now.
I wouldn't doubt it one bit. That would make sense because Nintendo Power and Tengen were both stationed out in California. And there's also a very large following of RBI in California. I'd still like to see proof before I believe it though.
However, it shocks me that all those California RBI players out there never would have brought it up. You'd think they would have been all over that. Anybody remember the Nintendo Power RBI tourney?
SmokedUBad
www.dee-nee.com/rbi/mbeales - The Official R.B.I. Baseball COTUT
I do remember reading about an RBI tourney a long time ago, but don't know much else. Vaguely remember the score of the finals being 5-3 and someone used San Fran. I have no idea why those stats pop in my head...
Probably a Nintendo Power archive online somewhere, but too lazy to look...
I gotta bring this issue up. I cannot believe that enough people think it is possible to regulate the infield fly rule for an rbi tournament that involves money.
Am I the only person that thinks this is far too subjective???
The issue isn't whether you think a "real RBI player" would never stoop so low as to use the infield fly rule...the issue is if it is possible to accurately determine if the fielding player was making an "honest" attempt to catch the ball.
Agreed. Intentional drop was always outlawed, even when we were like 8. I've yet to hear about the intentional "bop" though......interesting. I still wouldn't pull that shit in a VS game.
Intentional drop is ridiculous. If Chubbs or I ever did that to each other we would beat the other to a bloody pulp.
I say let the players police themselves. If someone does the intentional drop, it will be frowned upon. Doing so just sets up the other to do something in revenge.
We always played that the intentional drop was sort of off limits, though never set in stone. I agree that it must be hard to legislate intent, however if you are in this tourney and you can't field an infield pop up, you are in trouble,. But if you do misplay the pop up, you could always just throw one guy out, outlawing the double play.
It gets messy when you also have to consider intent even with throwing out only one runner--you can still swap a slow fart for a speed demon.
I guess you could do, Runner on 1st automatically gets 2nd, so you can only try to retire guy running to 1st
Since the Intentional Drop is so controversial, could you just compromise and have each pair make a gentleman's agreement and announce whether they are going to play allowing the drop or not. If they cannot agree, then you could coin flip. At the very least, it seems fair and might accomodate more opinions and personal tastes regarding the issue.
We've always played that the double play is banned but it's fair game which runner you want to go after. Basically, catching it if the batter is significantly faster, going to second if the runnre is faster. Not really how we ended up playing that way, just something that kind of happened.
For all those that say the intentional drop is part of the game I say this: so is a punch in the face. Seriously, just because something isn't illegal in the game doesn't mean it should be done. The game can't recognize when I punch you in the face, so that too should be allowed?
If you think this is ridiculous, then you'll admit there is a line in the sand that you'll draw on how far you can take advantage of the rules of the game. The game doesn't recognize physical violence between players, as it doesn't recognize bases loaded with 0 outs and a popup to the SS that is intentionally dropped. But it doesn't mean that you should do it.
I don't mean to use a slippery slope, but anyone that would take advantage of a dropped ball double play is a coward with no honor. It's an unfortunate opportunity, not a skill.
As for judging this for a tournament, I can verify that in my years of playing RBI, never have I had someone do this manuever without EVERYONE knowing exactly what had happened. We play if you intentionally drop a fly ball, you're only allowed to get the lead runner out (or rather one runner, if you're that inept). For the tournament I would say use this rule (one out maximum on a dropped flyball). And if anyone can't amicably come to a conclusion on whether it was an intentional drop or not (rare), then take my advice from above: let each contestant punch the other in the face until the matter is resolved.
Or look at it this way: if someone were to loose a game due to a play like this, do you think they would walk away from the tournament satisfied that it was fair? I wouldn't.
Mike
Quote from: MarquisEXB on 02/18/04, 11:17:07 PM
For all those that say the intentional drop is part of the game I say this: so is a punch in the face. Seriously, just because something isn't illegal in the game doesn't mean it should be done. The game can't recognize when I punch you in the face, so that too should be allowed?
I couldn't agree with this statement more. My brother Craig used to do it when we were about ten. After incessant beatings and relentless taunts, the intentional drop hasn't been seen in Phoenix since.
I disagree with you both. Call me a coward if you want. Call me dishonorable if you want. But I prefer to take all subjectivity out of the matter and let 'em play.
If you can do it to me and I can do it to you, then all is equal.
I say people that have to make up their own rules are too controlling. The game let's me do it--so who are you to say I cannot (if we were playing each other)?
Bring on the name calling--I will stack my RBI skill up against anybody's in this forum. It doesn't make me any less of a player...it only makes me have a difference of opinion than the majority.
Quote from: JoeDirt on 02/19/04, 09:11:51 AM
I disagree with you both. Call me a coward if you want. Call me dishonorable if you want. But I prefer to take all subjectivity out of the matter and let 'em play.
If you can do it to me and I can do it to you, then all is equal.
I say people that have to make up their own rules are too controlling. The game let's me do it--so who are you to say I cannot (if we were playing each other)?
Bring on the name calling--I will stack my RBI skill up against anybody's in this forum. It doesn't make me any less of a player...it only makes me have a difference of opinion than the majority.
continued...
I put it to you, Greg - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America.
--walks out humming the National Anthem
Eat me!
Blowjob!
Hey, would you assholes shut the hell up!?
Quote from: fknmclane on 02/19/04, 11:56:02 AM
Eat me!
Blowjob!
Hey, would you assholes shut the hell up!?
Hmm...this coming from the self-described "low class."
Interesting...
Joe, it's just Animal House.
I know it is. I just couldn't resist. :)
Fknmclane knows I love him. :-*
We're both diehard Yankee fans and we generally agree on RBI preferences.
Dude, I'm upper lower middle class. ;)
I just now realized that this friggin' topic has been resurrected. Why would anyone bring this up again?! For the love of God I just don't understand. I thought this insanity was over, but now I must resubmit my opinions on this topic and relate them to the present tournament's views...
First and foremost, I'd like to agree with Chubbrock, fknmclane, ultimate7, and especially MarquisEXB. I salute you Mike, I feel I have nothing further to say on this matter thanks to your wonderful post.
Proceding to the tournament... the current rule is that "The intentional drop will not be allowed. The penalty will be three automatic outs at the player's next batting session and the baserunner shall receive two bases."
This rule is going to have to be modified and made more clear in the very near future. Also, any rule is subject to be increased at the supervisor's discretion (if, for example, the intentional drop ends the inning or the game).
I was going to say alot more, but I changed my mind because I was confusing myself. Sorry.
SmokedUBad13
www.rbibaseballcotut.com - The R.B.I. Baseball COTUT