For those who have expressed support for Slammin Sammy, let me tell you why his record (if he lasts) won't stand. Until 1998, Sammy was not even considered a power hitter!
He had hit 40 homers only once, a feat which became commonplace in the mid-90's. You say that over the last 5 years, Sammy has averaged 58 homers. Well, in those years where he hit 66, 63, and 64, how many did he lead the league in that category? ZERO!!! In each of those seasons, except for 98, he was on a non-contender in a home run race that was exciting for america to watch. He was getting fastballs like a 3 year old gets candy on Halloween! Don't believe me? Watch a highlight reel of Slammin Sammy's "amazing" home runs. That man CANNOT hit a breaking ball! Why do you think that he strikes out so often? Good teams/good pitchers have figured this out. Why does he hit so many homers, because there are enough bad teams/bad or young pitchers who give them up. In years where he hasn't had a pacer (someone who was putting up better numbers) Sammy has achieved 50 and 49 homers respectively! Are you telling me that his power is totally legit? He is a classic case of an average power hitter who beefed up (possible steroids...since I can't prove it, I won't say it's definite) and kills fastballs. Dave Kingman, had he played amped up on roids and been fed a constant diet of fastballs, would also have contended with 600 - 700 homers. Same with Darrell Evans. Those guys fell just short of 500 homers in a time where there was no talk of steroid use, juiced balls, or cramped ballparks. I put Sammy in the same category with those type of guys; Evans, Kingman, Rob Deer. The only credit that I'll give him is that he has improved his batting average.
QuoteUntil 1998, Sammy was not even considered a power hitter!
He has been in the NL Top 10 in Home Runs every year since 1993. That's 10 straight seasons. I would consider him a power hitter before 1998...
QuoteWell, in those years where he hit 66, 63, and 64, how many did he lead the league in that category? ZERO!!!
And how many times was the all-time home run record broken during those seasons?
QuoteWatch a highlight reel of Slammin Sammy's "amazing" home runs. That man CANNOT hit a breaking ball! Why do you think that he strikes out so often? Good teams/good pitchers have figured this out.
You might want to go and look at the career strikeout numbers again, virtually everyone on that list is a legit power hitter. So you are saying Sosa has lucked into all these homers and can really only hit fastballs off of bad pitchers?
QuoteAre you telling me that his power is totally legit?
Yes...
QuoteI put Sammy in the same category with those type of guys; Evans, Kingman, Rob Deer.
This makes no sense... So Sosa is in the same category as Deer because he strikes out a lot and he didn't lead the league in his top home run years?
That's exactly what I'm saying. Sammy Sosa has made his living hitting fastballs out of Wrigley and off of the Brewers. Look it up. He hits many of his homers YEARLY off of the Brewers (and other bad teams) who have one of the worst and youngest pitching staffs in baseball. I will look for evidence to back it up, but trust me until then
Until you edited it, you claimed 1/3 to 1/4 of his homers came off the Brewers. Last year he had three homers off Milwaukee, out of a total of 49. That's about 1/16th of his homers. Must have been a lucky year for him, thankfully every other bad team threw him nothing but fastballs...
Here is a breakdown by team for Sammy's last 3 seasons. Look at who he hits most of his homers against. He is a bottom feeder!
check this link if you don't believe me
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits3?statsId=4344&type=batting
Out of 163 homers over the past 3 years, he's hit more that half (85 to be exact) of them off of Cincinnati, Colorado, Houston, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, and San Diego. That's not exactly the elite of the league there. Their pitching staffs (except for maybe Houston this season) are all terrible.
The only way that Sammy could hit MORE homers against bad pitching is if he weren't on the Cubs...cuz then he could tee off on their bad pitching too!
Don't forget to mention that Sosa had the most ABs against
1. Cincy
2. Houston
3. Milwaukee
4. Pittsburgh
And outside of Stl (who he more homers against than San Diego), he had pretty much 2x as many ABs than any other team. That might account for some of those homers....
QuoteSammy Sosa has made his living hitting fastballs out of Wrigley
In the last three years, Sosa hit more homers on the road (83) than at home (80). In the last three years, Sammy's Average, OBP and Slugging Percentage are higher on the road than at home. So much for the home field advantage...
How bout 13 at Enron, or should I say HOME RUN field? That makes it more like 93 - 70! Plus 7 at Coors and it's more like 100 - 63. Doesn't look so even now does it? EVERYONE hits homers at those 2 parks, so it's just like having a home field advantage.
Look, I'm not here to argue really. I just put Sosa's "guaranteed records" under the category of I'll believe it when I see it.
I'm not saying that the guy doesn't have power or that he doesn't hit a lot of homers. I'm just not impressed by him that's all
And I say comparing him to Rob Deer and saying all he does it hit fastballs off bad pitchers is absurd... I'll leave it at that
I don't think I like any of this Rob Deer bashing! I do agree with Gantry, though. I'm not a fan of Sosa, but he still is a pretty good power hitter. I would like him to take a 'roid test. He said he's clean and would take a test anytime, but when he was called on that, he got upset. A little fishy.
I'll admit that in the heat of the moment I threw Rob Deer in there. Sammy has probably 100 points more on his career batting average than Rob did.
Sorry about bashing Rob by the way
EDFan,
First let me start off by saying, "I you f&cking kidding me"! Now let me break dpwn some of your points in regards to Sammy Sosa.
*You critize sosa for not leading his league in HR in the years he 60 hr's or more. Yet he was THE FIRST PLAYER EVER to hit 60 hrs or more in three different seasons. This critique borders on the insane.
*You then go on to say that he isn't a good hitter, that he can't hit curve balls and that he can only fastballs. Lets take a look.
Sammy Sosa is a bad hitter because from 1998 to 2002 he has had over 180 hits 4 times.
*you critize sosa for hitting HR for a non contending team with the exception of 98'. Yet it was in 98' where he had his highest total ever. Did he see a lot of fastballs then while his team was competeing?
*Sammy Sosa is a bad hitter because his averages between 1998-2002 were .308, .288, .320, .328, .288
Sammy Sosa is a bad hitter because he has decreased his strikeout total EVERY year since 1997
Sammy Sosa is a bad hitter because he has increased his BB every year since 96' which the exception of last season where he still had over 100 walks.
If Sosa couldn't hit curve balls, his strikeouts would increase not decrease every season and his walks certainly wouldn't increase every season. Plus his average wouldn't be around .300. The proof is in the pudding. He is a good hitter who is constantly improving his game. If the league has figured him out, if it was so easy to put him away, his numbers in so, bb, ave, would be getting worse not better.
*you critize sosa for hitting hr's against bad teams. You mention teams like Houston, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, and Cincinnati. Last time I checked those are teams in HIS DIVISION! Of course he has more HR against them, the cubs PLAY THEM MORE. Last time I checked, division games are important being that you compete against them for a playoff spot, so in reality its a good thing that Sosa hits HR against divison opponents.
*You put Sosa in the same catagory as Evans, Kingman and Deer. Why this is I have no idea. There are about 50 reasons why this is a bad bad comparsion. Sosa is a much better hitter than those three guys. We don't even have to look at the power numbers. Lets just look at hits.
--Kingman played 16 seasons and had over 150 hits just once.
Awful.
--Deer, played i believe 12 seasons and never had over 125 hits. Awful.
--Darrell Evans played 22 seasons and had over 150 hits just once. Awful.
--Sosa had over 150 hits 8 times in 14 seasons.
not bad.
The main reason this is a very bad comparsion is because you are comparing differnet eras which is really unfair to all parties. You have to make too many assumptions in order to create some type of level playing field. Compare sosa to his peers like not guys from the 80's. This way the playing field is the same for all parties. You elimate all assumptions about ballparks, jucied balls, bad pitching, ect.
*Its hard too believe that someone is not impressed by Sosa. IN my opinion he is easily a first ballot HOF right now.
Ok, let me refute the walks statement. It would be hard for Sammy NOT to increase his walk totals, because he gets more intentional passes now.
He's drawn more than 100 walks exactly twice in his career:
2001 - 116 walks; 37 of which were intentional
2002 - 103 walks; 15 of which were intentional
Now the strikeouts:
1990 - 150
1993 - 135
1994 - 92 (a strike shortened season)
1995 - 134
1996 - 134
1997 - 174
1998 - 171
1999 - 171
2000 - 168
2001 - 153
2002 - 144 (played in only 150 games and since his at bat per strike out was 3.9 you could probably put him over 150 had he not had the neck injury).
C'mon guys...even Mark Grace publicly called Sammy Sosa a "brain dead hacker"
Are you telling me that's a significant drop in strikeouts?
I will, suckafree and all the other Sammy backers, concede the point that he will almost certainly be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer. I know that my view of Sammy is by far the minority. I just wanted to share my skewed opinion with my fellow RBI'ers. Mostly because I think that we can debate a topic, even heated, but still maintain the respect that everyone deserves
This is hilarious! ED Fan every statement of yours is obsurd. I would argue your point however Gantry and SUCKA did more than a good job. I love how you point you ideas out on the table on Sammy and when someone proves you wrong, you take it back. If you don't like Sammy that is one thing. But to say the things you've said about him without any statistical backing is just dmub. Personally I think the Cubs would be a better team without him. While he is a great humantarian for his home country (that will help his chances for the Hall, right Sucka :-) ) I think that he isn't the best team player. He is more worried about hitting home runs then trying for an opposite field hit to move the runners along. He controls the club house with his loud blaring Salsa music before games. He brings his 'friends' to home games and allows them to take batting practice in the cage, taking away precious time from his teammates. He doesn't steal enough bases anymore even though he for sure could steal 20 bases per year. He doesn't work on his defense and leaves much to be desired there. And if the Cubs would be able to get a lot for him, i say trade him. HOWEVER, after all those flaws he is still in the top 2 best power hitter in all of baseball with Bonds. Is he on steroids? Yes he is, no question. Look at him when he was on the Sox and now. Creatine and working out doesn't get you like that. Look at Bonds from 5 years ago to now, is he on steroids, yes. It's funny to see him on the Pirates and see him now. He is like3 times wider and just huge. But steroids or not there is no way to prove it now, so their numbers are legit. Bonds started a little too late. While he most likely pass up Aaron...Sosa is only 33 now. He will blow by Bonds and as I said before, Sosa will be shaking A-Rod's hand when it all done. ED Fan, you may want to stick to RBI.
If Sosa was such an easy out why would be issued an intentional walk? One would think he would never be intentionally walked if he has such trouble with a breaking ball.
I think you could have made a better argument by taking a reverse stance on the intentional walk issue. If you had said Sosa isn't respected as a threat becasue he almost never gets a free pass to first like his power hitting peers (i.e bonds and Mcgwire) that would have been more plausible. It is logical to assume that a really good power hitter would have a lot of intentional walks. Sosa has a low amount if IBB. However, this isn't a strong argument as well on the bases that the cubs are such a poor team that their games aren't close enough to warrant a free pass. When you are beating the cubs by 7 or 8 runs in a game, why IBB someone?
My point about the drop in strikouts and walks is this; although its only a reduction of 15% it is clearly a trend that it has been going down over the past 4 or 5 seasons. He is improving on not swinging at bad pitches. He IS striking out less and drawing MORE walks. He doesn't get IBB for a powerhitter, which means that he gets his walks by being more selective at the plate. With the cubs acquiring a new coach and better pitching this trend will continue. I promise you.
As for mark grace....he is the slump buster king and he says a lot of things.
In addition to Suckas statement, Sosa doesn't get IBB's because he is selfish at the plate. He's rather K at a bad pitch, than walk most of the time. However he has been getting better plate discipline lately.
As far as Mark Grace is concerned he hated Sosa. For a lot of the reasons that I stated 1 or posts ago on this thread. He bashed Sosa and the Cub organization when he left. The Cubs actually picked Sosa over Grace. That is why they gave Sosa all the money and sent Grace packing. Grace was one of the advocates of trying to trade Sosa when he was there. While Grace is a very nice guy and honest, I would take his statements against Sosa as biased and with a grain of salt.
I never knew that those two didn't get a long. Interesting stuff. Hey, did sosa make the push for a new coaching staff, or was it that the cubs were just really bad?
I wouldn't take the reverse stance on the intentional walk issue, because of this:
Sammy hit 49 homers last year, while being intentionally passed only 15 times (still only 103 walks). Bonds hit 46 homers last year, while being intentionally passed 68 times (198 in total....27 more than Sosa if you omit Bonds IBB and NOT Sosa's)
So I say that Sosa is not as feared as his peer (as Vitb put it) Bonds
And to you Vitb, I only took back the Rob Deer statement, because I realized that I went a little too far with the statement. On the other hand, I don't recall calling anyone dumb for stating their piece here. That, my friend, is DUMB!! I have backed up what I said with stats or links to stats. If you're here to be a prick, then don't post!
I will say this to all who have replied today:
Just because you think you are right, doesn't mean that you are.
Just because you think I am wrong, doesn't mean I am
Yes, I realize that goes for me too.
I said before that I felt that this place was good for debate, because everyone had their opinion respected.
I take serious exception to being called dumb for defending my point. I never said that anyone had to agree with me.
Agreed EDF... I know vit personally and he is simply a passionate debater, especially when sports are concerned. No harm intended...
Lets keep things civil on here, that's what the Dee-Nee Forums are about...
vitb6 is the terrell owens of the forums
i agree with you, vit, for the most part. yes he (sosa) is more concerned with himself lately and hitting homeruns is what he wants most, but he still likes chicago and likes being here. hes not that bad on defense, hes got a hell of an arm.
and with trading, lets say the cubs trade him for....A rod (i know its not possible but lets say...), how much better will the cubs be? they have almost the same stats for batting. plus 1 player cant carry a team. instead of sammy, they should worry about the rest of their squad instead of just having 1 good hitter. lets see how they do this year with these new guys and young players. im betting not good, but maybe in a couple years some of these younger players may mature into all-stars? you never know. lets just hope for the best, unless you dont like the cubs.
ED, I wasn't calling you dumb, actually I just wrote that word for lack of another one. Sorry for the extreme offensive nature of my post.
Moving along,
Terrell Owens of the forums.....I LOVE IT!!
And SUCKA Sosa definately did NOT want another coach. He was getting away with murder when Baylor was here. Baylor's undoing was his first year here in Chicago. He had a closed door meeting with Sosa and tried to 'tame' him by telling him that he couldn't play his music in the club house before games and he couldn't bring his 'amigos' to the ballpark before games. Well that didn't sit well with Sosa and he let Andy McPhail know about it. Well McPhail told Baylor to let Sammy do what he wanted and that basically Sammy was above the team concept. Ever since then day in spring training Baylor has been 'leashed' in what he can do as a coach. That is one of the reasons Grace doesn't like Sammy. Grace has been in Chicago longer than Sammy at that point and was getting disrespected. Now that Baker is here we will see what happens during spring training. It will be very interesting, especially considering that one of Baker's initiatives is to change things around the clubhouse. I think that means Sosa attitude, but we will see. Keep your eyes open for it.
JCBALL- What you said is true. If you trade Sosa it can't be for 1 other player. It must be for mulitple good, young players. The Cubs shot themselves in the foot in 2000 when they were actually shopping Sammy. It was very close and he almost went to the Yankees for Shane Spencer and minor leaguers Alfonso Soriano and Nick Johnson. I believe cash was also being thrown in. I have no idea why the Cubs didn't pull that one off, except that maybe their scouting staff were a bunch of monkeys which is truly possible. They underestimated how good Soriano was and Nick Johnson will come into his own this year. If you can get a deal like that it is so worth it. Think of how much money they will save and be able to spend on other players. Sammy made $15 million last year alone. Break that up for two $7.5 mil guys plus Soriano and Johnson and your team is much better than just with Sammy hitting HR's.
yes, that would of been a hell of a trade. soriano is a beast. if the cubs traded sosa for 2 good players, they would be a lot better. they need to start spending. i bet if the cubs spent their money more often and in larger ammounts, the cubs could easily make it to the playoffs and win the first round at least. they can even keep sosa and pick up another all-star like torii hunter or shawn green, for example. just give them money and dave veres or augie ojeda or anyone. another thing, i think bringing back beck was a terrible move. alfonseca might not be the best, but he had 20 saves and thats not bad. he might do a lot better this year. beck had a very good year with the cubs with 50+ saves. what happened the next year? he blew like double that. im exagerrating, but still. hes not going to do any good. i think hes washed up and is a waste of time. plus the cubs also have veres and farnsworth right? well hopefully they keep beck in AAA because he would do more harm then good for the cubs. the cubs need great players, not guys like troy o'leary that wont do anything. i say instead of getting 2 or 3 somewhat ok players, they get actual Good players.
thats all i have to say.
Hindsight is 20/20 on Soriano. The scout team should be able to foresee Soriano being a great player, oh well that's in the best. Well at least I had the whereabouts to draft Soriano in my minor league fantasy baseball draft 4 years ago. Boy am I reaping the benefits now.
Alfonseca blows his ERA was 4.00 with a 1.50 WHIP (hits+BB/IP) last year. That is really bad for a closer and he only had 19 saves. The sad thing is that they signed him to a $5 million per season contract!! The sad thing is that if they would just spend their money 'better' they could have picked up Ugueth Urbina (closer BoSox) for $6 mil per. He had a 3.00 ERA, 1.06 WHIP, 40 saves and 71 K's in 60 IP. Much much better. Even better they could have not signed a closer at all, used Farthworth as their closer and used the money they saved and give it to Jeff Kent. You don't need to spend a lot of money (although it helps) you just need to spend it wisely. I bet hardcore fantasy baseball fans know more about the players in MLB then all those suits sitting in the upper echelon of the majority of baseball clubs. I am for hire and I work cheap!
Here is a name that will make his mark in the majors pretty soon. His name is Josh Hamilton. He's in the TB AA system now. He would have been in the majors last year if he didn't have his back jinjury. This guy will make an impact with Vlad type numbers as long as he can stay healthy. He's been hurt the last 2 years, slowing his development. FYI.
I finally made it to Denny Walling level!!! DEE-NEE!!!!
Hey Tree, Sandberg middle name is DEE. You should make Sandberg the celebrity forum moderator or something.
Quote from: Vitb6 on 01/13/03, 06:26:53 PMED, I wasn't calling you dumb, actually I just wrote that word for lack of another one. Sorry for the extreme offensive nature of my post.
Apology accepted with gentlemanly cyber-handshake. Back to civil debates we go then, T.O. (I mean Vit) ;)
I knew that bringing up the Sammy topic would not be popular (well-liked that is), but I didn't know it would create that kind of uproar! I like the fact that everyone tries to bring stats to the table to support their argument. The only person that I can talk baseball like that with around here is my brother. Keep up the good work everyone!
yeah, urbina would of been a hell of an addition. you are right, they should of gotten him for 1 mil more. alfonseca might not be good, but i guess they see things in him for this year. he will probably be the same, maybe 1 or 2 saves better, but not worth giving up urbina for.
about rob deer again, i was looking at a page and he was on a list for the worst hitters in major league history, i dont believe it, but its just something interesting.
heres the site.
http://www.nocryinginbaseball.com/hos/worst.html
I just re-read this thread. I still say that Sammy was a bottom feeder, who wouldn't have amounted to much without a steady diet of fastballs and steroids. I'm not sure that all of my arguments made sense, but I sure defended them
p.s. he might be making a comeback
Can we move this thread to the Anything Goes forum
Quote from: ultimate7 on 07/06/06, 10:20:53 AM
Can we move this thread to the Anything Goes forum
I can't. I started this thread when I generally only posted in the RBI board. I don't know how to move a topic. Gantry to the rescue
I was joking
Gotcha, but I seriously wondered why I had this in the RBI board. Moving it would be ok
Quote from: ericdavisfan on 01/13/03, 08:38:01 AM
For those who have expressed support for Slammin Sammy, let me tell you why his record (if he lasts) won't stand.
STEROIDS
He could've been sneaky and been using corked bats since '98 too, luckily it didn't happen right away, when was that, 3 years ago they caught him for a corked bat?
Oh and hello everyone again, it's been awhile, I forgot about this site (probably because I haven't been playing video games in 3-4 months)! Never getting rid of them though, EVER!
Eh, I guess it was mostly steroids though, he did get a little bigger in size. But they DO workout alot too, probably every day.
Sosa will probably get to the Hall of Fame, that'd be in 2011, his 1st year eligible.
In another 5-6 months we'll find out how Big Mac fares in the HOF voting. Gwynn & Ripken should be a shoo-in, no doubt.
Recently, all MLB teams were told to put together a "5 greatest players of all time " list for their respective teams.
The Cubs selected Banks, Williams, Jenkins, Santo, and Sandberg.
No Sosa. .. . .
From '98 - 2002, Sosa was a monster. Roids? Yep, most likely. However, there was a marked difference in his approach at the dish when he began working with Jeff Pentland.
He was fun to watch when the cubs were assy, but that's about it for me and Sosa. I was so happy to see him gone.
How the F did Sandberg make that list?
Quote from: JoeDirt on 07/19/06, 08:42:54 PM
How the F did Sandberg make that list?
He would make
my list before Sosa.
Fine, I admit it...I was just trying to get that fat bastard Ryno worked up...
Quote from: JoeDirt on 07/19/06, 08:56:47 PM
Fine, I admit it...I was just trying to get that fat bastard Ryno worked up...
I didn't say he should be in the top 5....
I only would have him ahead of sosa.
Quote from: JoeDirt on 07/19/06, 08:56:47 PM
Fine, I admit it...I was just trying to get that fat bastard Ryno worked up...
i'm big boned
'cept in the shorts, right?
wrong. . . .wanna see?
uh, you might have me confused with moses.
How is Jenkins the token pitcher on the list instead of Three Finger Brown?
no love for hack wilson's record breaking rbi season? what was it, like 190 or something?
Quote from: BeefMaster on 07/20/06, 09:03:08 AM
How is Jenkins the token pitcher on the list instead of Three Finger Brown?
Or Stinkfinger Smith?
I tend to agree with the Cub's list. I wouldn't have included a douchebag like Sosa in the top 5.
If you're going just on stats, then Cap Anson is probably the best cub of all time. . . .too bad he's also the biggest shithead / racist of all time, too.
If anyone on that list should be axed, it's Fergie. The rest of those guys played 90% (or more) of their careers with the Cubs.
If no steroids were involved then without question I think they'd have Sosa in place of Fergie (hell Sosa might be on the team right now). You can't really include stuff in a fan ballot like that and have people than basically none of your fans were alive to see play (unless it's Babe Ruth or some super super star)