Two RBI's will be forgotten and toil away into obscurity, ALTHOUGH THEY BOTH BELONG IN THE HALL OF FAME.....
ANDRE DAWSON
JACK MORRIS
The Hall is losing credibility when Tony Perez and Orlando Cepeda are in and the above two have been and will continue to be snubbed.
I don't buy the argument for Morris. "He won the most games in the 80's" doesn't impress me all that much (really, it's a matter of being an above-average pitcher for good teams and starting his career at the right time), especially when you consider his ERA when playing in a decent pitchers' era. You can't put him in on the basis of the '91 Series any more than you can put Maris in for 1961.
As for Dawson, I'm a big fan, but I don't know. I could go either way, and I'd probably agree with the last person to try and persuade me. He never exuded "Hall of Famer" to me, for what that's worth.
They won't disappear after this year - I don't think either will make it into the Hall, but they'll probably get the 5% minimum to remain on the ballot until their eligibility runs out.
Beefmaster:
I can tell you understand the game and not just the video game like a lot of others on the board. I respect what you say but here's what put these two in:
Jack Morris: best post season pitcher of his era. Numbers and other non-quantitative analysis prove this. Also, he was the ace of his whatever staff he pitched on for like 17 years. Better pitcher than Nolan Ryan (Ryan and Fisk go to Hall first ballot because they were freaks of nature--longevity, and fan favorites)
The Hawk: almost 500 career homers (turf in Montreal tore up his knees and kept him from this and 3000 hits). Also, he has a lot of stolen bases and many gold gloves. And just ask pitchers of his era they'll tell you he was as feared as anyone.
I also think a 3rd RBI-er could be argued on to this list: Blyleven.
Don't forget:
Rice
Evans
Dale Murphy
Sandberg
I truly believe there is a conspicacy to keep ryne sandberg out of the hall of fame. I think that conspiracy is lead by none other than that fucking knuckle dragging pubic hair licking nut sack eating fart knocker we more commonly refer to as Joe Morgan.
Quote from: Ryno23 on 12/03/04, 07:05:44 PMI think that conspiracy is lead by none other than that fucking knuckle dragging pubic hair licking nut sack eating fart knocker we more commonly refer to as Joe Morgan.
That's the nicest thing I've heard about Joe Morgan in a while. I'm surprised he isn't on tv right now with Jon Miller defending Barry Bonds. Fucking douche bags.
Better pitcher than Nolan Ryan (Ryan and Fisk go to Hall first ballot because they were freaks of nature--longevity, and fan favorites)
I think thats a crazy statement. Ryan is in the hall because he has over 300 wins...which morris doesn't have and has over 5000 strikeouts...with morris around 2500. and if you want to use longevity as an excuse Ryan's career era is .8 lower than Morris which is a lot over a career.
and I agree with ryno...Ryne Sandberg should be in the hall best national league second baseman of all time.
I'd put Blyleven ahead of Morris - he was basically Don Sutton with more strikeouts and fewer wins (because he was on a lot of rotten teams), and there's no reason he shouldn't be in the Hall already.
As for Morris' postseason dominance, I just checked the numbers, and I don't see it. He was 7-4 in the postseason, with a 3.80 ERA, just .1 lower than his regular season mark. Some of that was from his horrible '92 postseason, when he was 0-3 with an ERA over 7, but even without that, his ERA was 2.59, which is excellent but not historic. It surely doesn't make up for a 3.90 career ERA, especially since '92 really shouldn't be factored out.
On another subject, Ryno's right - his namesake should be in the hall, and Joe Morgan should die of gonorrhea and rot in hell.
Ryno and the Dutchman should both be in the Hall by now. There is no argument that can make me change my mind on this.
The best way to think if a guy belongs in the HOF is to simply ask, "is he a Hall of Famer?" If you have to think about it, he's not. Pretty simple.
Ryno and Bert...I don't have to even think about.
Jim Rice or The Hawk, I have to think about.
I think joe morgan should die of hell and rot in gonoreaha
Quote from: Ryno23 on 12/03/04, 07:05:44 PM
Don't forget:
Dale Murphy
My favorite player growing up. I'm biased, but I think he deserves it.
Jim Rice belongs in the HoF, I have heard many excuses as to why he DOESN'T belong.
Jim RBI Rice
Ryan had around 275 career loses. ERA lower because he pitched in the NL during the 80's. He's not even the ace on his RBI team.
Sandberg hit a lot of homers for his position--but he did it in right handed hitter's paradise. Lou Wittaker should go before Sandberg (who's arrogant early retirement did not prove to leave the intended legacy).
You'all can play with stats all you want. But you need to have played and been around the game to know greatness. Jack Morris had nasty stuff and that is why he was a number one started for 2 decades, not to mention the game 1-4-7 preferred starter for championship teams. Ryan's only postseson accomplishment was in 1969 (Save in game 1 of WS)
Mattingly was a better player than Sandberg, Rice and Murphy (all were not close to as tough of outs). Discuss Mattingly before you even go down the food chain to these others.
Back to Fisk, half the player of Bench. Fisk was an easier out and less the defensive player than Benito Santiago--and he ain't going in.
Ryan isn't the ace on the Houston RBI team? You just don't like the guy...face it.
Yea, Ryan sucks, those seven no hitters were a complete fluke. A guy's gotta have at least 10 no-no's before I'd consider him an ace. ::)
arrogant retirement?
how does turning down about 7 million a year because you don't think you're earning make one arrogant?
Ryan had a lot of losses because he played for a shitty team(s). Period.
Wait a minute - you're putting huge emphasis on the postseason for your claim that Morris is better than Ryan, yet you're arguing for Don Freaking Mattingly, who took 15 years to even get to the playoffs while playing for the Yankees?! In his defense, he played well in his one playoff series.
Mattingly was a great player for awhile, but you have to factor in his short peak. For four years, Mattingly was one of the best players in baseball. For the rest of his career, he was Kent Hrbek with fewer homers and a slightly higher batting average. No one except the craziest Minnesotans are arguing for Hrbie to get into the Hall, and the only better argument for Mattingly is that his peak was greater than Hrbek's. Hrbek also won two World Series (he played poorly, for the most part, but he did have a grand slam in '87), if we're going to discuss the postseason.
Sandberg was one of the 5 best second basemen in history, easily, and he was by far the best at the position for close to a decade ('84-'92). He was an elite offensive player at a position that has historically had very few of them, and he played tremendous defense as well. His numbers don't look as impressive since the offensive explosion of the 90's, but during the 80's, they were excellent for any position, not just second base.
I don't buy any argument against Nolan Ryan being in the Hall of Fame. The losses argument is especially bogus, for the reason CurtFlood gave - the man once led the league in ERA and went 8-16.
Quote from: BeefMaster on 12/05/04, 10:52:49 AM
For the rest of his career, he was Kent Hrbek with fewer homers and a slightly higher batting average.
Mattingly is on the record books as the top AL defensive 1b in the history of baseball (and tied for AL/NL with our boy I'm Keith Hernandez).
I don't buy the crap about 1b not being an important defensive position...tell that to Rich Auirila, who benefited from JT Snow's extreme ability to pick short hop throws out of the dirt, saving an error on Richie.
Sorry, I forgot about defense - you're right, Mattingly does have awesome defensive credentials (Hrbek was underrated on D, but not in Mattingly's class), and first base defense is too often overlooked. Still, I don't think that puts him in, any more than Hernandez makes it.
For people that feel Mattingly should be in HOF:
What about Cecil Cooper or Wally Joyner?
Mattingly is glorified beacuse he played in NY. Does not deserve entry.
Although his 42 rbi in 1990 make it a close call.
They should just close down the HOF if Sandberg and Blyleven are not in.
Quote from: what_foul_pole on 12/03/04, 06:17:00 PM
Jack Morris: best post season pitcher of his era. Numbers and other non-quantitative analysis prove this. Also, he was the ace of his whatever staff he pitched on for like 17 years. Better pitcher than Nolan Ryan....
I did some non-quantitive analysis of my own, and even looked at some numbers. I came to the conclusion that this is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. Ryan vs Morris? Come on.
I dont buy Morris being the best postseason pitcher of his era either. Compare to
Dave Stewart 10-6 2.84
Orel Hershiser 8-3 2.59
Jack Morris 7-4 3.80
I think your blinded by that long ass start Morris had.
Ryan played on some crappy teams, but his teams' career winning pct is over .500.
I took every team he played on, tallied their w/l and got that pct.
I was surprised.
Still, Nolan is the shit. Tons better than Jack Morris.
I will say this. Nolan Ryan is no Manny Trillo.
Steve Avery, postseason superstar
10 Postseason Series 6-4, 2.90 era, 77.7 innings
Jack Morris was a good pitcher, but his postseason stats don't do much to make me think he's a hall of famer. It's the regular season stuff that really matters. Some great players, cough, Nolan Ryan, cough, never even get the chance to dominate the playoffs.
Quote from: Ryno23 on 12/05/04, 04:37:47 PM
I will say this. Nolan Ryan is no Manny Trillo.
By that, do you mean he's not a Latino middle infielder? ???
Post season prowess should only add to a player's chances for the HOF. Lack of post season prowess should not take a way from it.
The post season is just gravy to me (when looking at HOF-a-bility).
It's a team thing. One player cannot gain a post season berth, therefore, that can't be a determining factor.
I'm sure if there were a way, Nolan Ryan, Andre Dawson, Jim Rice, Ryne Sandberg, and others would have single handedly led their teams to a WS title. They'd have pitched, caught, played IF, OF, RP, and closed out games if they had to. . . but that's no the way it goes.
Fuck, I guess Jose Oquendo is the only hall worthy player. He's come closest to doing it all by himself.
Also look at Sandberg's fielding percentage...its amazing..he is a no brainer to be in the hall
And come there is no comparison...I love Morris but he is no Nolan Ryan...7 no hitters speak for themselves
Cecil Fielder should be in the Hall.
uh, mike. i think we're talking about rbi'ers not players who resembled them.
True. That eliminates my next argument for Steve Balboni. I once saw him drop three out the stadium home runs for the Oklahoma City 89ers.
I think Jack Morris should be in. When me and my buddies discuss the best players in the 80's, he is invaraibaly picked in the top 2 of AL Starters (then again, Stieb is usually in there and he isn't HHOF worthy). Morris was pretty dominating for a good number of years and pitched in the WS for 3 different teams which is pretty decent...although he sucked the hind tit for the Jays in '92. Also any comparison between him and Nolan Ryan is ludicrous. Ryan dominates that head-to-head. Sandberg should also be in as those are pretty great numbers for a second baseman. (On a side note, does Robbie Alomar get in as well).
Mattingly also deserves a nod eventually. And U.L. Washington.
Holy crap, Morris had 175 career complete games, with at least 9 every year from 1979-1991 (20 in 1983), that is impressive.
Quote from: ultimate7 on 12/06/04, 12:07:51 PM
Holy crap, Morris had 175 career complete games, with at least 9 every year from 1979-1991 (20 in 1983), that is impressive.
Especially with Guillermo Mellancamp in the pen from '84 onwards