I'm in the process of making the RBI Baseball page on the Wikipedia (http://www.wikipedia.org) and just did the initial draft of the history section. For those of you who do not know the Wikipedia, it is a user-submitted, completely open online encyclopedia. In two years it will be one of the 10 most important sites on the net. Anyways, here it is let me know of any corrections that need to be made. Also correct any grammar or spelling, as I'm not much of a writer. If anything is confusing, also let me know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RBI_Baseball
Bravo, Gantry!
I must thank you for mentioning Wikipedia before. In my public speaking class, I was somewhat stumped on a place to look for my topic. It was a random inspiration, but I remembered you mentioning the place. I used it as one of my sources, and managed to get a 90% on my speech.
And nobody thinks they'll learn anything from Dee-Nee :P
Glad to help, I have been completely addicted to the Wikipedia since I signed up for editing pages. I'm all over the place with edits and pages, quite exciting. Made pages so far for RBI, Ruby Dee and the Districts of Sierra Leone. It is growing so fast and IMHO is most exciting Internet community project of all-time...
Quote from: Gantry on 12/19/04, 09:19:40 PM
It is growing so fast and IMHO is most exciting Internet community project of all-time...
...more exciting than project RBI online? ???
Nicely done, Gantry.
I didn't realize Wikipedia was constructed all by users. That's pretty crazy. There's tons of good shit on there.
The entire project is completely open, anybody can edit any article (except a select few). The organization and administration is tremendous, it's run better than 99% of the businesses out there...
Also made some edits to the Ghana Empire, Scott Norwood, Tengen and Operation Ivy pages. And this was all pretty much done in the last two days, I can't stop...
Checking the OpIvy page now...
...and it's solid. Lemme guess. D4 and Naked Raygun are next?
I actually didn't write most of that, just edited some obivous linking mistakes and the like. A NR & D4 page are great ideas, should get around to that. Finishing the RBI page is a top priority for now, hopefully will do one section a day...
Do you guys think the sentence about the MLB license shouldn't be in the history section? I think it might be a bit out of place...
The next section will likely be Teams and Rosters, perhaps I should put it there instead. Thoughts?
Actually, I think the fact that it was the first game with an MLB license is exactly what gives it some historical significance for those who aren't RBI nutjobs like us.
On a related note, Peter Lipson seems to now be programming at ToysForBob (http://www.toysforbob.com/database/tfb_home.html), which has put out a few average at bset Disney games for PC and Playstation. Interestingly, his bio (http://www.toysforbob.com/database/peter_lipson.html) mentions programming for several games, including the coin-op version of "Relief Pitcher", but not for RBI Baseball.
I just finally got around to reading the entry. One correction I can see: The license for RBI was from the MLBPA (Major League Baseball Players' Association), not MLB, hence no logos or team names apart from city. RBI 2 and 3 also had MLBPA licenses but not MLB ones. I suspect that Major League Baseball may have had an exclusive license at that time (although it had no MLBPA license; same with the Ken Griffey games on the SNES).
I also wonder whether the history section may read better in past tense rather than present tense, although I haven't read through enough of Wikipedia to know what the standard for that type of entry is.
I'm just curious...what role did Lipson play in creating RBI? And how did we come up with his name in the first place?
and who are "kissie, dechi, hie, and kun chan"
Good stuff here, lets take it from the top:
fightonusc - I intend to email Peter (I've done it before in the past, he's a very nice guy) when I'm all done to make sure everything is kosher. I suspect that he didn't list RBI because he had enough accomplishments and it was a port...
QuoteOne correction I can see: The license for RBI was from the MLBPA (Major League Baseball Players' Association), not MLB, hence no logos or team names apart from city. RBI 2 and 3 also had MLBPA licenses but not MLB ones. I suspect that Major League Baseball may have had an exclusive license at that time
Interesting... So is the MLBPA license the reason RBI has real players? Major League Baseball had no player names, just their jersey numbers. Is this because they didn't have an MLBPA license?
QuoteI'm just curious...what role did Lipson play in creating RBI? And how did we come up with his name in the first place?
Lipson was the sole person responsible for RBI, if I remember correctly. He pretty much took Family Stadium and ported (converted the game code from Famicom/Japanese to NES/English) it over. Because most of the work was done on the Japanese side, he didn't have to do a ton of original programming. Though obviously he did code unique aspects, such as BOPs...
I got Lipson's name from the RBI Programmer's cheat (http://dee-nee.com/rbi/faq.shtml#CODES):
(http://dee-nee.com/rbi/pics/cheat.png)
And noticed Peter Lipson was the only real name on that list. Googled and found his Toys for Bob email and dropped him a line. Probably emailed him 10 or so times, but haven't done it in a couple years...
Quote
Quoteand who are "kissie, dechi, hie, and kun chan"
I'm not positive, but a good guess would be the nicknames of the Japanese programmers for Family Stadium. I belive Peter told me that he visited the programmers of FS out in Japan, so he probably threw their names in out of respect. Pure speculation on my part though...
QuoteInteresting... So is the MLBPA license the reason RBI has real players? Major League Baseball had no player names, just their jersey numbers. Is this because they didn't have an MLBPA license?
Correct. MLBPA handles all player rights, while MLB is responsible for licensing team logos and nicknames. As far as I know, the first game to actually get both MLB and MLBPA licenses was the first Griffey game on the N64, unless Tecmo Super Baseball on the SNES had them. It's now standard to get both licenses, but it used to be pretty rare.
I believe the first game in any sport to have both league and players' association licenses was Tecmo Super Bowl. The original Tecmo Bowl didn't have an NFL license, which is why the teams have weird logos, and I'm not sure any NBA games existed at that time.
Have you ever asked Peter about how the stats were decided for the players, or who decided which players to use for the All-Star teams, etc.? Is he a baseball fan at all, or just a code warrior who had the assignment of porting this baseball game?
Great info Beef, I'll change the Wikipedia entry in 15 minutes or so. Do you know if RBI was the first game in any genre to use player licenses? Did RBI predate Tecmo?
Release date for Major League Baseball would also be nice if anyone knows it. I think GameFAQs might have it...
QuoteHave you ever asked Peter about how the stats were decided for the players, or who decided which players to use for the All-Star teams, etc.? Is he a baseball fan at all, or just a code warrior who had the assignment of porting this baseball game?
We discussed the teams and baseball a little bit, but I don't remember anything concrete. I was doing my absolute best to not bother him too much with questions. Perhaps he'd be down for an email interview where the forum comes up with 5-10 questions to ask him, ala Slashdot...
I couldn't find a release date for Major League Baseball, and the stats appear to be made-up. I'd guess that it's from the late 80's, though, as the Twins have players whose numbers correspond to Hrbek, Puckett, and Gaetti, all with lots of homers.
To my knowledge, RBI was the first game to have a players' association license. Tecmo Bowl was released for the NES in 1989, and the arcade version was released in 1987, according to what I've managed to find so far. I don't think the arcade version had actual NFL players; I'll check on MAME when I get home. The only other possibility would be that a computer game had them before then; I didn't play many sports games on computers growing up, so I don't know what was out there.
I changed the history page to say MLBPA license instead of MLB. Let me know about Tecmo, at the very least I can say "first console game" - shit I had no idea that Tecmo had an arcade version...
I think the next section should be Major League Baseball Licensing where I can explain the type of license and its impact on RBI. I can also differentiate it from Major League Baseball's license to clarify.
I don't know if you are referring to only NES, but I could swear some PC games before 1987 had real players/teams.
They must have, I used to play Micro League Baseball and I'm pretty sure that was before 1987....
But were these games licensed through the MLBPA? I know Peter Lipson told me that the arcade version of RBI wasn't licensed at all, they just put the players in there. I wonder if that was the case for the other games like Micro League, Tony Larussa, Earl Weaver etc...
Just a thought - I wonder if the reason the arcade game's stats usually don't match any years' real stats (at least, for players that were currently playing) is because they didn't have the license. Perhaps they thought that fudging the stats would be enough to keep the lawyers away.
I'm not sure what the rules are for players who have retired... some of the NBA Live games have historical players, and I think they work out deals with each player.
Quote from: BeefMaster on 12/20/04, 02:19:17 PM
Just a thought - I wonder if the reason the arcade game's stats usually don't match any years' real stats (at least, for players that were currently playing) is because they didn't have the license. Perhaps they thought that fudging the stats would be enough to keep the lawyers away.
Certainly some are exact stats (like 1984 Ryne Sandberg)
From what I remember in Peter's email they pretty much had no rights and didn't really need them. Not sure what changed in a year between Vs. RBI & RBI, perhaps Nintendo laying the hammer down...
All Game Guide puts the release of Major League Baseball for the NES at April 1988. It also has a quick overview that explains the licenses.
http://www.allgame.com/cg/agg.dll?p=agg&SQL=GIH|||||1249 (http://www.allgame.com/cg/agg.dll?p=agg&SQL=GIH%7C%7C%7C%7C%7C1249)
Good find Fathead and it goes along with exactly what Beefmaster was saying. A release date of 4/1988 makes it older than RBI. I have yet to find a definitive release date for RBI but I know it was first unveiled at the Summer 1988 CES (June 1988) and release sometime that year. So anywhere between 7/1988 and 12/1988 I guess...
Added a section describing the licenses, critique and criticize:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RBI_Baseball
Hey guys, I just wanted to let you know that I sent an email to Peter Lipson just to say that I love his game and thanks for it...Gantry, you're right--he is a super nice guy.
I did throw in there the question of the unknown variables in regard to pitcher's abilities determinates. This was his response:
"you're right- I've forgotten a lot. I really don't remember the stats at all. If I have the code around, I'll take a look (don't expect to hear soon, though!) I suppose you're looking at a rom disassembly? If I recall, the pitchers each had a 'special' ability, which could be knuckleball, screwball (curve the other direction) and maybe another;
all had the fastball/curve/changeup too. There might have been a variability factor as well as a maximum. "
Also, he made mention of a "classics game convention" every year in San Jose...anybody know what this is all about?
I'm assuming that he is referencing the Classic Gaming Expo (http://www.cgexpo.com/). It looks pretty interesting, especially for some of the more gaming and ROM knowledgable amongst us (i.e. not me). But if I'm moved to the Bay Area then, I might go (it's only $20-30 to get in).
Quote from: BeefMaster on 12/20/04, 12:37:53 PM
Correct. MLBPA handles all player rights, while MLB is responsible for licensing team logos and nicknames. As far as I know, the first game to actually get both MLB and MLBPA licenses was the first Griffey game on the N64, unless Tecmo Super Baseball on the SNES had them. It's now standard to get both licenses, but it used to be pretty rare.
I believe that World Series Baseball on Genesis was actually the first game to have MLB and MLBPA rights. Not sure if Tecmo baseball on SNES did, although I heard that game sucked.
Quote
I believe the first game in any sport to have both league and players' association licenses was Tecmo Super Bowl. The original Tecmo Bowl didn't have an NFL license, which is why the teams have weird logos, and I'm not sure any NBA games existed at that time.
Also on Genesis, I believe the first John Madden football and certaintly "Lakers vs Celtics and the NBA Playoffs" had both real teams and real players. Those both came out in late 1989/early 1990.
I thought the early Madden games just had player numbers, not names. They were based on real players, but they weren't actually them. I know my copy of Madden '95 is that way.
You heard correctly about Tecmo Super Baseball - I got it with my SNES, and it is probably the worst baseball game I have ever played. I completely forgot about "Lakers Vs. Celtics" - the first NBA basketball game I ever played was "Bulls Vs. Blazers" on the SNES, although I knew that "Bulls Vs. Lakers" existed on the Genesis.
you might be right about madden, but i can say with absolute certainty that lakers vs. celtics had real players.
Does anyone know which game after RBI was the first to get an MLBPA license? That is probably a good one for the wikipedia...
maybe Sports Talk Baseball for genesis?
No NES game had real players but the RBI series?
Quote from: Gantry on 12/23/04, 08:52:36 AM
No NES game had real players but the RBI series?
Not that I know of. Can anyone come up with a list baseball games and whether they had real players/teams? Here's what I can think of off the top of my head:
RBI (3 games): MLBPA
Bases Loaded (4 games): None
Baseball Stars (2 games): None
Baseball: None
Major League Baseball: MLB
Bo Jackson Baseball: None, that I recall; Bo was in the game, though
Baseball Simulator 1.000: None
I seem to recall Roger Clemens Baseball being released on the NES, but I only played it on the SNES, so I'm not sure, and I don't recall whether it had real players.
Was Tecmo Baseball a NES game? The Tecmo series typically had real players...
Tecmo baseball did not have real players, and if I remember correctly, it was horrible.
Quote from: ultimate7 on 12/23/04, 09:59:39 AM
Tecmo baseball did not have real players, and if I remember correctly, it was horrible.
It was good. It was miles better than the game play of the first Bases Loaded, Baseball (vomit), or Major League Baseball. I believe that RBI, Baseball Stars, and Baseball Simulator 1.000 are the only NES baseball games better than Tecmo Baseball. I also got the game as a present on my 8th birthday.
Quote from: Gantry on 12/23/04, 08:52:36 AM
No NES game had real players but the RBI series?
Only thing I can think of off the top of my head is Legends of the Diamond (http://www.allgame.com/cg/agg.dll?p=agg&SQL=GIH%7C%7C%7C%7C15018).
Nightwulf
Major League Baseball the Game was after RBI.
Actually, according to GameFAQs, Major League Baseball came out in April of 1988, while RBI didn't get released until after the summer of 1988. Check out the Wikipedia article for more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RBI_Baseball
For other NES baseball games, here's a lazy cut-n-past from similar games to MLB on allgame.com:
Bad News Baseball, Baseball Simulator 1.000, Baseball Stars II, Baseball Stars Professional, Baseball Stars, Bases Loaded II: Second Season, Bases Loaded for Game Boy, Bases Loaded, Bo Jackson Baseball, Little League Baseball Championship Series, R.B.I. Baseball 2, R.B.I. Baseball 3, R.B.I. Baseball, Ryne Sandberg Plays Bases Loaded 3, Tecmo Baseball
Quote from: Gantry on 12/28/04, 01:57:10 PM
Ryne Sandberg Plays Bases Loaded 3
What? Is this the full name of the game or is this 2 seperate games? Is Ryne Sandberg Plays a game?
I was thinking the same thing, Booyah!
http://www.allgame.com/cg/agg.dll?p=agg&SQL=GIH||||13807 (http://www.allgame.com/cg/agg.dll?p=agg&SQL=GIH%7C%7C%7C%7C13807)
Edit - And seriously, why does allgame use the pipe symbol in their URL names? Really fucking dumb...
Wow, I had no idea
"Instead of the long season found in previous Bases Loaded games, Bases Loaded 3 has a unique system. Based on your quality of play, you are ranked on a scale of one to five. Your ultimate goal is to be good enough to defeat a level five team. To do that, you'll have to play at the same level as Ryne Sandberg. No one said this was going to be easy."
Has anyone here played this game? Is it any good? I kind of like the bases loaded series, the hittting was tough to get used to, but beaning the batter and charging the mound was pretty cool.
vimm.net has it, though no direct links are allowed. Go to The Vault, NES, "B" and you'll find it
Quote from: BeefMaster on 12/23/04, 09:11:08 AM
I seem to recall Roger Clemens Baseball being released on the NES, but I only played it on the SNES, so I'm not sure, and I don't recall whether it had real players.
RCB did not have real players on any platform, except for Clemens himself. Since it didn't have the MLB license either, it didn't have real teams either.
Long time lurker, first time poster. love the site.
Welcome openwindow! I love it when a lurker comes out of the shadows...
Good to know about Roger Clemens, so the only two NES games with MLBPA licenses are RBI & Legends of the Diamonds? Did Legends have any active players? If not, I wonder if it is a different license...
It's been a long time since I played it, but if I remember correctly, all the players were long since retired. I'm not sure what licensing they had to do, if any.
Nightwulf
You figured they would have used some new players if they could. Doesn't MLB have a Veterans Association? Perhaps they needed licensing from them..
Well, I would think that players who retired before the MLBPA came to being in 1966 wouldn't be covered by any sort of licensing agreement. Just a guess, though.
i'm not sure if you'd need licensing if the person was dead. also laws may have changed since the 80's that protect veterans' rights. and maybe those legends would fall under some sort of fair use for famous personalites, somewhat like using george washington's likeness-- you wouldnt have to get licensing for him. now claudell or U.L. are a different story. i'm no legal eagle but those ideas are just off the top of my head.
Well, Legends of the Diamonds has Ernie Banks who is both alive and played after 1966. He has to have some sort of control over his likeness, if I had to guess. But IANAL (I am not a lawyer)
Legends of the Diamond only had 24 players to choose from in the whole game, and some of them pushed the boundaries of being "legends" (Bobby Richardson?). I suspect that they reached deals with individual players or their estates, especially since the game doesn't list any specific license (at least, not in the opening screen).
Bobby must have been 1 hell of a 2nd basemen because he was a 7 time all-star despite hitting over .270 only twice and never hitting more than 8 HRs. Somehow he finished 2nd in MVP voting in 1962 when he had his best year hitting .302 with 8 HRs
east coast bias, plus he was a yankee. need i say more?
Legends of the Diamond was awesome. They used to have umpire confrontations "I was safe by a mile!" "Yerrr out!" "Safe!" "Out!".
Also, there was a little known glitch that if you beaned something like 10 in a row, the guy would charge the mound and swear, but I think it was something like "Aw, what the hell!"
Quote from: Mike D. on 12/29/04, 10:27:13 AM
Legends of the Diamond was awesome. They used to have umpire confrontations "I was safe by a mile!" "Yerrr out!" "Safe!" "Out!".
Also, there was a little known glitch that if you beaned something like 10 in a row, the guy would charge the mound and swear, but I think it was something like "Aw, what the hell!"
That was Bo Jackson baseball...unless Legends of the Diamond used the same voices.
Quote from: Gantry on 12/28/04, 03:14:34 PM
Welcome openwindow! I love it when a lurker comes out of the shadows...
Good to know about Roger Clemens, so the only two NES games with MLBPA licenses are RBI & Legends of the Diamonds? Did Legends have any active players? If not, I wonder if it is a different license...
Thanks for the welcome.
Had to chime back in since I have a copy of Legends of the Diamond lying around the house. Don't have the manual but I do have the box, and on the box it makes no mention of being licensed by either the MLB or the MLBPA... I wonder if they just negotiated the rights to each player or if they just went ahead and did it. I'm going to guess the latter, just because it doesn't seem like a lot of things were done with licensing then. Probably why we never saw a sequel either. That game was pretty fun.
Quote from: ultimate7 on 12/28/04, 02:11:37 PM
Wow, I had no idea
"Instead of the long season found in previous Bases Loaded games, Bases Loaded 3 has a unique system. Based on your quality of play, you are ranked on a scale of one to five. Your ultimate goal is to be good enough to defeat a level five team. To do that, you'll have to play at the same level as Ryne Sandberg. No one said this was going to be easy."
Has anyone here played this game? Is it any good? I kind of like the bases loaded series, the hittting was tough to get used to, but beaning the batter and charging the mound was pretty cool.
I had a friend who had Bases Loaded 3 (Ryno was on the label, although he wasn't actually in the game at all), and I managed to win it a couple of times. The hitting was pretty much the same as the original, but they changed the fielding for that one, staying with a "behind-the-fielders" perspective after the ball was hit. The graphics style and perspective reminded me of an upside-down Baseball Stars (camera closer to the players than RBI). It also had a team editor, although you could only change one team, and it didn't save the changes. It took awhile for an RBI/Baseball Stars veteran to get used to, but once I did, it was a really cool game.
The perfect game was hard to pull off. The way it works is that you start with 100 points, losing points for errors (misjudging fly balls, throwing to unoccupied bases), getting picked off (by the pitcher or on a fly ball), striking out, and one or two other things that I can't remember right now. You could get points back for diving catches, but that was about it. You started against a Level 1 team, which was a pretty easy game, and you played a higher level team for every 10 points you finished above 60 (90 or more played a Level 5 team). If you beat the Level 5 team with 100 or better game score, that was considered a "perfect game", and you got to see the credits and whatnot.
Quote from: Gantry on 12/19/04, 08:35:21 PM
For those of you who do not know the Wikipedia, it is a user-submitted, completely open online encyclopedia. In two years it will be one of the 10 most important sites on the net. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RBI_Baseball
hows this prediction going about being a top 10 most important site? is gantry a fortune teller or not?