Sucka free, I just wanted to get some clarity on the rules. So here's what I understand, along with my questions. Of course, I have thought too hard over this subject...
1. The derby is played for three innings, for one player. Then the game is reset, and the second player plays for three innings.
2. Both players get to choose which team they want to use on offense.
3. Does the offensive player get to choose the team that will be pitching against? And choose the pitcher?
4. No All Star Teams are allowed to be used (for pitching or hitting).
5. Pitchers have to pitch down the middle. They simply push A, right? No fast balls or slow balls?
6. If a hit is not a homer, it's an out. Does that mean, that the fielder simply tags him out after the base hit...leaving no one on base? The reason I ask this is, a batter might have a better chance programatically to homer if someone is on base - I'm not sure.
7. Can a player sub his own pitcher, during the bottom-half of the inning (while he's pitching)? Yeah, pitchers aren't gonna homer 99.99% of the time, but if someone wanted to put in a lefty pitcher (for his next at-bat) because he knew that he was forced to bat with a pitcher next inning, can he do that?
8. How many pitches does a batter get until he's out? If he doesn't hit the ball fair after three pitches, is that an out? Or does he get unlimited?
9. Can the batter elect to sub the opposing pitcher at any time? For example, if the opposing pitcher got very slow...
10. Do you have to sub a batter in the beginning of an at-bat...or can it be made at anytime?
11. The pitcher cannot touch the control pad at all, after the ball has been hit...right? No run-ins, button tapping, etc...
Well, that's all I can think of for now. Is there anything else that I'm missing?
Uhhhh first off Lips - and no offense to sucka intended - but this is going to be our tiebreaker so we can make any rules we want. But sucka's input would be most appreciated...
Quote1. The derby is played for three innings, for one player. Then the game is reset, and the second player plays for three innings.
Gotta do it that way, to keep it fair. Any hit that doesn't leave the stadium is an out...
Quote2. Both players get to choose which team they want to use on offense.
Absolutely, I definitely want this rule. It can be the same team, but it doesn't have to be. Plenty of strategy this way...
Quote3. Does the offensive player get to choose the team that will be pitching against? And choose the pitcher?
I think we should choose the same pitcher for everyone, everytime. A good choice would be Mike Scott on Houston, since he is right, of average speed and nobody is going to pick Houston in a derby. If you want to be sure, it would have to be an All-Star pitcher. But I think it should be the same opposing pitcher, and Scott is my choice...
Quote4. No All Star Teams are allowed to be used (for pitching or hitting).
Definitely not for hitting, maybe for pitching but most likely no. See below...
Quote5. Pitchers have to pitch down the middle. They simply push A, right? No fast balls or slow balls?
I think you have to do that to be fair. Only problem with is that is different from our usual outside pitching. But then again, we pitch that way because it prevents homers. Keeping it right on the middle is my choice...
Quote6. If a hit is not a homer, it's an out. Does that mean, that the fielder simply tags him out after the base hit...leaving no one on base? The reason I ask this is, a batter might have a better chance programatically to homer if someone is on base - I'm not sure.
Nobody on base, for sure. Same scenario for every batter, you have to keep things consistent...
Quote7. Can a player sub his own pitcher, during the bottom-half of the inning (while he's pitching)? Yeah, pitchers aren't gonna homer 99.99% of the time, but if someone wanted to put in a lefty pitcher (for his next at-bat) because he knew that he was forced to bat with a pitcher next inning, can he do that?
I would say no here. The only reason there is a bottom half of the inning is because of the game's limitations to bat in a row. The only time you can do this is if you pinch-hit for the pitcher in the top half. But that's it...
Quote8. How many pitches does a batter get until he's out? If he doesn't hit the ball fair after three pitches, is that an out? Or does he get unlimited?
Like any other RBI at bat. It's down the middle so you only get three strikes. If you foul off pitches an absurd amount of time, we might have to institute a drinking penalty. But generally until you strike out...
Which brings me to something I wasn't thinking about. Do foul balls count as outs? If they do, it's gonna be a short derby. I guess they do, eh? I would like to see fouls not count towards you outs, but that needs everyone's approval...
Quote9. Can the batter elect to sub the opposing pitcher at any time? For example, if the opposing pitcher got very slow...
I would say no here... Consistency with pitching to make it fair. You tire out a pitcher that means you are doing VERY well...
Quote10. Do you have to sub a batter in the beginning of an at-bat...or can it be made at anytime?
Anytime IMHO, but this might tie into the foul ball thing. I say anytime though. More strategy...
Quote11. The pitcher cannot touch the control pad at all, after the ball has been hit...right? No run-ins, button tapping, etc...
Nope, and I would say you can choose your pitcher. Doesn't have to be your opponent. But it's tap A and off the controller...
There's my take, lets hammer these rules out...
Lips,
First off, I just want to say that you, gantry, vitb6, and whoever should have the final say being that its your tourny BUT I am still going to give my input. You really brought up a lot of great senerios so I will address each one.
1. Correct. 3 innings sounds good. After 3 innings, the game is reset and its the other players turn.
2. Yes. Each player should be able too choose which offense they want.
3. In the MLB All-star HR contest, the batter can choose any pitcher he wants. I remember in Boston when McGwire brought his own BP pitcher to the game to pitch to him ion the contest. I thin the same rule applies. The player on offense gets to choose the team and the pitcher he is going to face. Again, strategy is important. Do yo prefer a sidearm guy or over the top. A hard thrower or soft thrower. All of this is determined by the preference of the batter. Its a HR hitting contest. The point is to create the optimal conditions for you to hit an HR.
4. No All star teams for hitting or pitching.
5. Down the middle with a simple A push. No fast or slow pitches. I think that whoever is doing the pitching should not be involved in the contest. You need an objective pitcher to eliminate contraversy.
6. All at-bats should be with the same conditions, meaning that no one is on base. No rally-time effects with the bases juiced. If a player hits a double he must be tagged out. This also elimates extra fireworks on the HR. A basehit is an out...just make sure you don't run all the way home for an inside the park HR.
7. Yes. You bring up VERY unique point, one that I wouldn't have thought of, but again plays into the stragey. Once three outs are recorded the offensive player will obviously have to quickly record three outs while pitching to advance to the next inning. If you feel like you odds of hitting a HR with a pitcher are better with a lefty, then yes it is okay to switch to a lefty in the bottom of an inning. Honestly, the odds of a pitcher hitting a HR is EXTREMELY remote.
8. This is another great question. Are foul balls outs? I'm not sure. I would be inclined to say that fouls are fouls and that outs can only be recorded with fair balls. However, this should be a house rules call. I'd be fine either way.
9. Yes. In MLD HR contest, pitchers can be subbed at any time. HOWEVER, once the contest starts, you cannot choose another team to pitch to you. Example, if I am boston I choose houstons to pitch the first inning, st louis to put the 2nd inning, and SF to pitch the thirs inning. You only get one team to pitch to you so you only get a totla of 4 pitchers. Choose carefully.
10. I would say that once a batter recieves a pitch he is the batter for the duraton. I can't imagine why you would sub mid at bat, unless of course you forgot to corretly sub in the player you wanted, which in that case is your own damn fault.
11. I would be against button tapping and ru-ins. No voo-doo trickery allowed. Again, whoever is pitching must be an objective participant so no cheating can occur.
That is a pretty good list and I can't think of anything else. I think you should probably playtest the HR contest at least 10 times to look for possible flaws, however, right now I think it can workd as is.
I think I would prefer to use the same pitcher for both teams, but it's certainly debatable. If we don't I'm thinking everyone is going to go with a lefty pitcher and Boston. I like a nice, neutral pitcher because it'll add more hitting variety in the long run....
Another neat idea would be to use the Pines die. Roll an 8-sided die for team and again for pitcher - 1 or 2 pitcher one, 3 or 4 pitcher 2 etc. No subbing that pitcher and both players would have to play against them. That would make it very interesting!
Gantry,
I think we both responded to lips at the same time. No offense taken on your first point. I agree, you guys should be the only ones to hammer this out. I will say this though, I do think having a neutral pitcher like mike scott might be a bad idea. Let's say, your favorite team to hit with really hits well against a lefty. If you choose mike scott, a righty, you would be at a disadvantage hitting against someone who favors a right handed pitcher. I feel that the only way to create a level field would be to have a neutral right hander AND left hander or the offense gets to choose the pitcher.
I can't wait to see what you guys decide to go with. Defintily have a mock HR contest and post the results.
For #3, the reason I asked it...is exactly the reason sucka free explained. Each batter has his own pitching "likes". For that reason, I like the option of choosing my pitcher (with team).
For #7, I could go either way...but I think the option should be there. If someone wants to bat with a pitcher...he should have the option to put in whatever pitcher he wants to bat with.
For #8, I don't think foul balls should count as outs...but we might want to limit the total pitches per batter...to 3 or 5? Or just stick with unlimited? I guess a batter slowing down the pitcher (by mass quantity of fouls) could be be both helpful/hurtful to the batter, depending if he likes/dislikes slower pitches.
For #9, I think the pitcher should be sub-able. But I'm not sure if this should be allowed at any time. Maybe just at the beginning of an inning? In the MLB All Star HR contest, I'm sure pitchers are switched between rounds, for a batter (if the batter chooses). Here, a new inning is like a new round.
For #10, I like having the opportunity to change the batter at anytime. If you foul a couple pitches off...and there's no stroke going on, then you might want to use a sub.
Most of these will have to be ironed out with some test derbies....
I think the same pitcher is good, but perhaps I'm underestimating down-the-middle pitching for lefites. But as I picture it now, nobody is going to beat Boston against a hard-angled lefty like Hernandez. I just don't want the derby to end up being the same two teams and scenarios. If it doesn't work out that way, then picking your pitcher is fine...
#7 is fine, since it will never effect the outcome of the derby....
#8 I agree, I don't think foul balls should count as outs. I like a drinking rule for more then 5 straight foul balls, strictly enforced immediately after the AB is over. Tiring a pitcher intentionally makes no sense if you can choose to start a closer anyway...
I like beginning of the inning opposing pitcher sub, as opposed to anytime. I'd prefer the same pitcher everytime, but I seem to be in the minority in regards to piching consistency...
Definitely change the batter anytime with the foulball rule in effect...
Well I came in a little late here but here is my take:
#2) Sounds good to me
#3) I agree with Gantry. We should try to keep this a consistant as possible. I think everything should be exactly the same between the two teams with exception to the teams picked. Although being able to pick the same team is a must. Again, this HR derby is in the event of a tie and thus, we are having a 1-on-1 comparison of HR talent. This can only be acheived by hitting off the same pitcher. Mike Scott or Nolan Ryan would be a good bet.
#4) No way
#5) Yes. However, as I stated in the other thread. The person controlling the pitcher should not be able to wait on the mound for 10 secs between pitches trying to 'psych-out' the hitter. The button should be pushed continuously, so the pitcher pitches at the same time...every time.
#6) I agree. No runners should be left on base.
#7) I would say no. This is a HR derby therefore we are only hitting. We are only pitchinig because we have to. Therefore managerial moves shouldn't happen while pitching. The other team should just bunt 3 times to get automatic outs and just move on. ***HOWEVER***, the other team must be able to score enough runs to make sure a slaughter doesn't occur.
#8) In MLB baseball derby's any pitch swung on and is not a HR is an out. Including foul balls. However, in MLB you don't have to swing at any pitch and NO pitch can be called a strike if you don't swing. But in RBI I think we should allow a set # of foul balls allowed and make a tremendously harsh penalty if you go over, since you can wear down a pitcher that way. If you wear down a pitcher by hitting a lot of homers, then you are doing a good job. But I don't want to see the 1st batter intentionally hit 15 foul balls if he only has to take like 1 drink for each foul. So I say like any fould AFTER 5 you would have to drink 1 can/bottle of beer in a certain time limit...say 5 minutes. Thoughts??
#9) No. Again, keep things consistant.
#10) MLB rules say that you can sub a batter during an AB, as long as the batter has LESS THAN 2 STRIKES. If the batter has 2 strikes than he can not be subbed. In this case you would be allowed 1 pitch since it will either be a strike or a foul ball. Any additional pitches will accrue 2 strikes, therefore making it illegal to change batters. I don't see a problem with subbing your batter during an AB as long as there are less than 2 strikes.
#11) Of course not.
That is all that I can think of.
Question - there's been some mention of subbing the pitcher on the hitting team during his "off-innings". What's the official position on pinch-hitting for the pitcher? It seems to me that this would be a fairly good idea; otherwise, the pitcher is basically an automatic out. It'd lend a bit of strategy to the proceedings as well - you need to guess how many times you'll get through the batting order in order to ration your pinch hitters.
I haven't read the thread on which this discussion was started, so I apologize if this question is redundant.
If I can offer an opinion, why make it so complicated? The real HR derby, IIRC, is 10 swings. Why not do something like that? 10 swings & the only thing that counts is HRs. Any runners that get on base get caught stealing b4 the next pitch, or run into an out, so no runners are on.
The only "unfair" part is maybe a good home run hitter hits it foul instead of fair & then runs into an out. So in the first case, the HR hitter is still at bat, while in the second case you go to a lesser hitter. But this seems to be a minimal loss, and well in tie breakers you need to add some randomness. Like in football they do coin flips for OT, not exactly an even system. Soccer style shoot outs are the same - the goalie just guesses & if he's lucky makes the stop. There is still some skill involved, like in football you have to still score, and in soccer people do miss. Make it any substitutions, at any time & you've made it more exciting & thoughtful. This should be much quicker than going 3 innings.
Mike
Actually, Marquis, in the MLB home run derby, they get 10 outs, not 10 swings. Every non-HR swing counts as an out, though, so 10-swing rounds do happen from time to time.
I actually don't think your 10-swing idea would be much, if any, quicker than 3 innings. I'd guess around 80% of hits will end up fair (since the speed of the pitch isn't varying, timing will be better), and 3 innings is only 9 outs anyway. 10 swings will only be 10 pitches (duh), but I can't imagine they'd have much more than 15-20 pitches with this setup, and this way you can let the machine keep track of outs/swings instead of having to do it manually.
We really need to get some play testing results in order to hammer down the details. Maybe this weekend you guys can get a case of beer and combine it with several versions of a HR derby, then report the results monday.
We did play a few rounds last night, though the results weren't too impressive. I got 8 dingers twice, both times off lefty pitchers. I got another 6 dinger game with San Fran (thanks to a double by Spilman), but all in all we sucked. We play outside so much that we didn't have the position down pat. A few observations:
1 - Pinch Hitters rule
2 - I found lefties easier to hit down the middle
3 - Choosing your own pitcher was fine, it does add more strategy. As long as it doesn't get absued with Botson/Lefty I am fine...
4 - Purposely getting out in the bottom half was a great way to work on your bunting technique. Also made things less boring for the pitcher.
5 - The run in technique definitely works...
6 - Each derby still takes awhile, but still shorter than a game.
7 - We're definitely not going to count foul balls as outs...
Just a few for now..
Was this a beer free derby? If so, your results remain suspect. You might hit a lot better down the middle with a budweiser. Something to think about. I still suggest that future testing be done under tournment conditions which means drinking. Just my opinion though.
It was beer free, a 10:30pm and work the next day derby. I'm not sure if we would enforce drinking in a TB, we probably would. Your TB opponent drinks your homers?
Your opponent drinks everytime you go yard?!?! Gantry, you are the smartest man on earth.
Might as well keep it in the rules of the standard drinking game. Though it may be an unfair drinking advantage if someone sealed the #1 seed and the other two were fighting for #2. Maybe 2 drinks per dinger and +1 per consecutive...
personally, I think that we should enforce the drinking rule in the tie-breaker. After all...it's a tie-breaker. And not really part of the tourney system.
Secondly, I really think that we should use the same pitcher everytime. Sure it adds more strategy to pick your own pitcher, but then again this ISN'T about strategy. It's about hitting the same speed pitch, down the middle and hitting it over the fence. The only strategy that should be in the HR derby is the ability to hit the long ball. And ONLY IF EVERYTHING ELSE REMAINS CONSTANT can we accurating establish the better HR hitting player.
I would agree with you vitb6 with one exception. I think that there should be a two pitchers in which you can choose from. A righty and a lefty. This way if some prefers one over the other, they can have that option.
Doesn't the team going second have an advantage since he knows what total he has to beat, and can adjust his pinch hitters accordingly?
That's a great point GDavis, perhaps we need to do it blind or rock-paper-scissors...
I'm not sold on a player having an advantag going second. I think that htere are plus and minus in going first or second.
Advantages in going first:
1. No pressure of catching up
2. More relaxed hitting enviroment
3. YOU GET TO MAKE YOUR OPPONENT DRINK BEFORE HE MAKES YOU DRINK!!!!!
Advantages in going second:
1. You know how many HR you need
2. Posibble line up adjustments
On my last post I fucked up. I DIDN'T re-read it (thanks to my thread) and just caught something. I think that people should NOT drink in the tourney. It is a tie-breaker only. People already drank the required amount and this tie-breaking system shouldn't include drinking just because there is a tie.
I think that drinking should be doubled because it is a tie-breaker. Vit, how can you have a HR derby with ou drinking? I just don't get it.
As the Dee-Nee tourney looms near, we are still trying to figure out a consensus tie-breaker. So I figured I would bump this thread...