I am trying to tweak my ranking system for RBI batters, and would like some outside opinions on some questions. (Please specify if you are talking str8 pitch or ATG (and give 2 different aswers if you wish).
1. I would like to hear opinions on how much better it makes a player if they are a lefty (if at all). For example, say 2 players have a power ranking of 875, contact-20, & speed-128. One of these players is a lefty and the other is a righty. How much more power/speed (together and independently) would the righty need to be an equal player to the lefty?
2. Would also like to hear opinions on how important speed is. For example, 1 player is the same as above. The other player is the same but has speed of 138. How much more power would be needed to make these player equal?
3. Some similar players I have trouble telling who is better:
Bell/Baylor
Hrbek/Jones
DwEvns/DCins
Raines/CDavis
Opinions? Please give answers in terms of their attributes, and not just because you like one better than the other.
I hope fightonusc responds to this as he has created a ranking model himself.
Are lefties always advantageous? I believe I've heard JoeDirt comment that he greatly prefers to hit with a batter who uses the same hand as the pitcher (I know he likes to use opposite-handed pitchers), and since there are more right-handed pitchers, I'd assume he generally prefers right-handed hitters.
Quote from: BeefMaster on 05/19/05, 08:51:07 AM
Are lefties always advantageous? I believe I've heard JoeDirt comment that he greatly prefers to hit with a batter who uses the same hand as the pitcher (I know he likes to use opposite-handed pitchers), and since there are more right-handed pitchers, I'd assume he generally prefers right-handed hitters.
Right, so that would be his opinion. I also know that he plays ATGs, so he feels he can cover the plate better with a batter with the same hand as the pitcher. I am wondering if his opinion would change in str8 pitch. Advantages of Lefties I have heard before include the lefty hit and it being more difficult to turn a double play with a lefty batter. I am just trying to quantify how much better being a lefty makes someone.
Quote from: BeefMaster on 05/19/05, 08:51:07 AM
I believe I've heard JoeDirt comment that he greatly prefers to hit with a batter who uses the same hand as the pitcher (I know he likes to use opposite-handed pitchers), and since there are more right-handed pitchers, I'd assume he generally prefers right-handed hitters.
I don't believe you've ever heard shit outta me.
Quoteit being more difficult to turn a double play with a lefty batter.
Is that true? I always thought players started in the same spot once the ball was hit no matter what side of the plate they start on.
Quote from: JoeDirt on 05/19/05, 09:02:11 AM
Quote from: BeefMaster on 05/19/05, 08:51:07 AM
I believe I've heard JoeDirt comment that he greatly prefers to hit with a batter who uses the same hand as the pitcher (I know he likes to use opposite-handed pitchers), and since there are more right-handed pitchers, I'd assume he generally prefers right-handed hitters.
I don't believe you've ever heard shit outta me.
So you are a quiet pooper.
Quote from: BeefMaster on 05/19/05, 09:05:17 AM
Quoteit being more difficult to turn a double play with a lefty batter.
Is that true? I always thought players started in the same spot once the ball was hit no matter what side of the plate they start on.
True, but since most people pull the ball, it is more difficult to ground into a double play if the ball is hit to the right side (since the fielder is more often out of position). At least this is what I have been said before. For example, Brett would probably ground into fewer DPs if he were a lefty.
Quote from: Ryno on 05/19/05, 09:13:13 AM
So you are a quiet pooper.
I don't be splashin' back or nothin', bitch!
My poo splashed literally while reading the above two posts. My timing is amazing...
Back to the topic at hand, it's tough to say. For straight pitch, being lefty is probably worth a good 15-20 power points over a righty with the same abilities.
I like USC's rankings based on ratio to best, though I think he gives a little too much credit for contact. Personally I think I would use something to the effect of (Power-Contact)*.85 + Speed*.15 to get ideal ratings.
Quote from: ultimate7 on 05/19/05, 09:46:14 AM
I like USC's rankings based on ratio to best, though I think he gives a little too much credit for contact. Personally I think I would use something to the effect of (Power-Contact)*.85 + Speed*.15 to get ideal ratings.
I agree. Since I play str8 pitch most of the time, I only gave contact about a 40% credibility when subtracting from the power ranking. I quantify speed differently than how fighton does it, so would not really be comparing apples to apples.
What are your thoughts on the whole Lefty thing?
And, in my example from my original post, how much more power would the batter need to compensate for 10 speed points?
How in the Fashoozle can Raines and CDavis be compared as equal. Raines takes shits in CDavis' cereal everymorning for fun. Why? Raines is fast and CDavid likes to eat shit.
Quote from: PHole717 on 05/19/05, 11:03:32 AM
How in the Fashoozle can Raines and CDavis be compared as equal. Raines takes shits in CDavis' cereal everymorning for fun. Why? Raines is fast and CDavid likes to eat shit.
Agreed. Raines is very fast (146). However, CDavis is also well above average in the speed category (136). CDavis also has 30 more power points than Raines (873 vs 843)-the same power difference b/w GDavis and Whitaker.
So, for you speed is a much greater factor. It sounds like you would easily trade 30 power points for 10 speed points?
Is this for Str8 pitch or ATG?
For me, speed doesn't do
that much for me in Str8 pitch, since you are normally not trying to produce runs like you would in a much more low scoring ATG game.
My guess (by using similar logic) would be that you would prefer to bat with Coleman than the 138-speed KBass?
While being unscientific, IMHO I would rather have Chili in straight pitch over Raines. The power makes up for the speed, especially since Chili already has decent speed...
Quote from: stockw19 on 05/19/05, 11:14:02 AM
Quote from: PHole717 on 05/19/05, 11:03:32 AM
How in the Fashoozle can Raines and CDavis be compared as equal. Raines takes shits in CDavis' cereal everymorning for fun. Why? Raines is fast and CDavid likes to eat shit.
Agreed. Raines is very fast (146). However, CDavis is also well above average in the speed category (136). CDavis also has 30 more power points than Raines (873 vs 843)-the same power difference b/w GDavis and Whitaker.
So, for you speed is a much greater factor. It sounds like you would easily trade 30 power points for 10 speed points?
Is this for Str8 pitch or ATG?
For me, speed doesn't do that much for me in Str8 pitch, since you are normally not trying to produce runs like you would in a much more low scoring ATG game.
My guess (by using similar logic) would be that you would prefer to bat with Coleman than the 138-speed KBass?
ATG all the way baby. Actually I refuse to play with the Cardinals. But Raines hits homers all the time for me, so those power points don't really matter to me. I just think Raines is the most well rounded played in the game because not only can he smack is as far as the power hitters, but he has the ability to steal third on a slow pitch
Quote from: Gantry on 05/19/05, 11:16:49 AM
While being unscientific, IMHO I would rather have Chili in straight pitch over Raines. The power makes up for the speed, especially since Chili already has decent speed...
Well in straight pitch, power is key.
Another thing I tried to keep in mind when doing my rankings was looking only at the stats (not the names). People tend to get biased opinions of certain players. For example, if you use Dt a lot you might think you hit more bombs with Trammell than you really do. For one, he is the lead-off batter so he gets more abs than anyone on that team.
However, when you look into the numbers (which do not lie), it is probably really true that you do not hit any more home runs/ab with Trammell than you would with the likes of Brett (or even Larkin off the bench).
Maybe the answer on speed is that it is not a linear comparison. Maybe, the more speed someone has, the more important it becomes. (something like a ax^2 function?) Or maybe the difference from average put to a exponential function (ie.. when comparing chili with Raines, speed isn't as much of a factor since they are both well above average. However, when comparing Raines to Mattingly, maybe speed is more important since Mattingly only has average speed. I will continue to tinker w/ some models.
Chili and Raines is a bit of a toss up but I'd go with Chili because he has above average speed and better power than the Rock.
Power is the great equalizer. I'd take Bell over Baylor and I'd take neither Dewey or DCncnss because I think they're both terrible.
I actually prefer to have the opposite handed batter/pitcher matchup so lefties are obviously my preference. As far as an actual number goes, I couldn't give you one.
Maybe the difference between Canseco and Chili Davis would make me wanna bat with Canseco instead.
Again, I my be a bit biased from watching dozens of Watch Games during the last Fantasy RBI season, and I don't know if this is just a "computer player" thing that doesn't mean as much as it does when humans are playing, but my opinion on the value of contact has changed greatly. I used to be of the opinion that it was pretty much a meaningless stat, but after watching power hitters with poor contact numbers be very streaky (HR or nothing) and players with good contact ratings consistantly make solid contact and put the ball in the power alleys, I'm now convinced that contact is more important than I thought.
Certainly, it's not as important as power, but I think it's at least 15 percent of their overall value (frankly, I'm starting to suspect that it's closer to 20 percent - about the same as speed).
i drafted my fantasy team using contact as the preferential category after power. i won the championship. fighton is right, but i put it into practice before he had the theory.
Who is better gibson or murphy, and why? (base this on numbers alone, and don't take the 64 pt power boost into consideration).
name - power - contact - speed
Gibson- 894 - 20 - 138
Murphy - 909 - 17 - 132
or CDavis and Schmidt?
CDavis - 873 - 24 - 136
Schmidt - 891 - 20 - 124
Murphy/Davis
Actually Murphy and Gibson are really a toss up
gibson, better speed and he's a lefty, seems to get more doubles or triples with his fleetness of foot.
schmidt, he will hit bombs, better contact rating = more chances at a better hit.
i'm assuming ATG and that you are batting them in the order they appear on NES. if you're doing a fantasy thing then i might take chili over schmidt because i can bat him 2nd in the order. schmidt sticks at 5.
Quote from: Teddyballgame on 05/19/05, 12:11:27 PM
gibson, better speed and he's a lefty, seems to get more doubles or triples with his fleetness of foot.
schmidt, he will hit bombs, better contact rating = more chances at a better hit.
i'm assuming ATG and that you are batting them in the order they appear on NES. if you're doing a fantasy thing then i might take chili over schmidt because i can bat him 2nd in the order. schmidt sticks at 5.
Right, I am looking solely at the numbers (so fantasy style).
Anyway, you bring up another good point of how lefties are better. With a runner on 1st base, it is much easier to move him to 3rd base with a lefty hit as opposed to a righty hit. And if fast enough, a lefty has better ability for triples. This is all assuming that most people try to pull the ball when batting.
OK, here are my new rankings.
If you don't agree with them (this is taylored a little more toward straight pitch, but not totally), I made the file interactive so you can play with the weightings of certain attributes (ie contact, speed, lefty/righty).
Here are the directions, if you wish to tinker.
1. Start on the "Rank" tab.
2. In cells R12-14, rank how much you would like each attribute weighted (see the scale at the top of the sheet).
3. Click on the "Paste" button.
4. Click on the "Sort" button.
I would just like to point out that lefties and righties do not, in fact, start running from the same point after putting the ball in play. Try opening the rom and hitting the screenshot button the instant you make contact and you'll see that the right handed batter starts running from the middle of home plate, while the left handed batter starts running from the front of the batter's box.
Also, I don't believed anyone's mentioned that it's easier to get a pettis with the lefty, since he hits the ball softer and slower to the shortstop, thus giving him more time to leg it out (not to mention having less of a distance to run to first, as stated above).
Quote from: OctogenarianFranco on 05/22/05, 05:57:20 AM
Also, I don't believed anyone's mentioned that it's easier to get a pettis with the lefty, since he hits the ball softer and slower to the shortstop, thus giving him more time to leg it out (not to mention having less of a distance to run to first, as stated above).
Does anybody even attempt this with a rightie?
Here are the rankings for the Arcade version.
If anyone has a homemade roster/stats on a rom, I would be happy to dump them into this file as well.
Quote from: OctogenarianFranco on 05/22/05, 05:57:20 AM
I would just like to point out that lefties and righties do not, in fact, start running from the same point after putting the ball in play. Try opening the rom and hitting the screenshot button the instant you make contact and you'll see that the right handed batter starts running from the middle of home plate, while the left handed batter starts running from the front of the batter's box.
Also, I don't believed anyone's mentioned that it's easier to get a pettis with the lefty, since he hits the ball softer and slower to the shortstop, thus giving him more time to leg it out (not to mention having less of a distance to run to first, as stated above).
Breaking news. All other stats being equal, LEFTIES ARE BETTER!
After reading Octo'Franco's post I decided to perform a test. I never had any luck trying to take a picture of a screen right after the batter made contact, so I did this instead.
I made a custom rom. For Ca, I made every batter a righty, and gave them speed of 100. For Bo, I made every batter a lefty, and gave them speed of 100.
I went 20 ABs for each team, and started a stop watch from the second the ping of the bat was heard, to the second the runner reached first base.
The righties averaged 4.965 seconds to first base. The lefties averaged 4.694 seconds to first base. Clearly, the lefties start closer to first base. In my sample case, this is 5.5% faster. It should be noted however, that this % gets smaller as the runners get faster, since this is a constant distance subtracted from the Lefties time affecting his time to first base. In either case, you can say that lefties get about an extra 1-2 step jump to first.
Other mumbo jumbo:
Righties:
N = 20
Avg=4.965
Med=4.96
Max=5.09
Min=4.89
S= 0.054
Lefties:
N = 20
Avg=4.694
Med=4.69
Max=4.78
Min=4.59
S=0.055
Nice work, stock
Interesting.... I take it once the runner gets to first, all bets are off?
Nice work stock, database and FAQ worthy!
Quote from: Gantry on 05/26/05, 11:30:18 PM
Interesting.... I take it once the runner gets to first, all bets are off?
Nice work stock, database and FAQ worthy!
I would assume so. I did not take any times going from 1st to 2nd.
In case anyone is wondering why I used speed of 100, I wanted to make sure the speed was slow enough so you could see the large difference in times. My reaction time is not perfect when starting/stopping the stop watch. If I would have picked someone too fast, chances are, many of my times would have overlapped.
the programmers thought of everything, all hail RBI, the most realistic baseball game in history!
Based on Stock's test of lefties/righties speed to first base.
One question: Being that every hitter had a speed of 100, why were there variations on the amount of time that it took to get to first?
EDIT: I'm an idiot, human error I assume. Anyway to do this test with FCE Ultra and computer stuff that I don't understand?
Yep,
Just human error. That is why I did a sample of 20 times for each handed batter.
If you notice though, the max time out of my 20 lefty's, was lower than the min time of the righties.
This was not very scientific, but still proved the point. I also used a very slow running speed (100) to minimize the variation of the errors.