This is pretty confusing. I'll try to explain it.
You are on your second to last pitcher and so you have one more left in the bulpen (and have already used uo two). You want to pinch hit for this pitcher so that he will not be taken out when the next half-inning starts. This will always happen as long as you've already used up the 4th pitcher on the list (as either your starting pitcher or your first reliever).
When I say 4th pitcher on the list I mean the order that RBI has the pitchers listed going down.
This only works with the 1st controller.
I haven't checked every possibility but this seems to be what's going on. It would be nice to find this in the code - I don't know much about code.
-gamme
I have no idea what's going on here
Quote from: gamme on 02/08/06, 11:17:54 AM
This is pretty confusing. I'll try to explain it.
You are on your second to last pitcher and so you have one more left in the bulpen (and have already used uo two). You want to pinch hit for this pitcher so that he will not be taken out when the next half-inning starts. This will always happen as long as you've already used up the 4th pitcher on the list (as either your starting pitcher or your first reliever).
When I say 4th pitcher on the list I mean the order that RBI has the pitchers listed going down.
This only works with the 1st controller.
I haven't checked every possibility but this seems to be what's going on. It would be nice to find this in the code - I don't know much about code.
-gamme
Excellent find gamme!!
I will be sure to use this after about 5 games of drinking RBI. By then, my opponent will never catch onto the fact that I didn't put in a new pitcher. Ha Ha.
I will also have to reverse my stance that this should be allowed in ATG type of play. Since 1st player is only able to do this, it would not be fare to allow it.
Nice find, I'll have to try this out
Crap, alright, I'll re-explain it.
Here is Boston as RBI lists them:
Clemens
Hurst
Schiraldi
Stanley
For Boston, Stanley is the "4th pitcher on the list". The glitch depends on who RBI labels as the last pitcher.
Now, as long as you use up Stanley and you are on another pitcher, you can pinch hit for that pitcher, and that pitcher will stay in.
This will work with any team and only works with the 1st controller.
P.S. It doesn't matter if you are on your 2nd or 3rd pitcher, just as long as you've used up the "4th pitcher on the list".
No matter what pitchers you've used, when you have no pitchers left in the bullpen, the game will not let you pinch hit.
Yeah, it sucks they only make it 1st controller. I'll feel like the asshole who won't pause the game for the second player when I use it.
This could make the coin flip for the COTUT more important
"No player can pinch hit for a pitcher unless there is at least one pitcher in said player's bullpen-regardless if NES allows for such, as this is also an easily correctable glitch."
As for this rule, I dont think the game will make this glitch. Correct me if I'm wrong - the game never allows you to pinch hit when you have nobody in the bullpen.
I'm also trying to figure out if this is a programming glitch or something the programmers intended to happen.
This is awesome work gamme, I intend to make a database page for it and update the FAQ...
Just to be 100% sure - the 4th pitcher has to be completely out of the game for this to happen, right? He can be neither the last pitcher in the pen or the player you are pinch hitting for...
Quote from: Josh BaskinI don't get it.
Quote from: Gantry on 02/08/06, 12:49:38 PM
Just to be 100% sure - the 4th pitcher has to be completely out of the game for this to happen, right? He can be neither the last pitcher in the pen or the player you are pinch hitting for...
Yes, that's right. And once you have that, then the glitch should work EVERY time.
Note: If you have no pitcher left in the pen the game won't even let you pinch hit for your pitcher. So we are really only talking about being on the first reliever or the second reliever and having the glitch work.
I'm hoping you saw the correction to the original post of this.
This glitch will work on your first reliever or second reliever, just as long as the 4th pitcher on the list is completely out of the game. (For instance, if you started the game with the last pitcher on the list, then brought in your first reliever - you could pinch hit for him and he would stay in). So you don't have to be on your second to last pitcher after all - just as long as the 4th pitcher on the list is completely out of the game.
It will never work when you on are on your final pitcher.
Quote from: gamme on 02/08/06, 01:54:46 PM
I'm hoping you saw the correction to the original post of this.
This glitch will work on your first reliever or second reliever, just as long as the 4th pitcher on the list is completely out of the game. (For instance, if you started the game with the last pitcher on the list, then brought in your first reliever - you could pinch hit for him and he would stay in). So you don't have to be on your second to last pitcher after all - just as long as the 4th pitcher on the list is completely out of the game.
It will never work when you on are on your final pitcher.
Will the pinch hitter stay in the 9-spot as well (assuming you don't make a pitcher substitution)?
ie.. I start with stanley. Then I immediately take him out of the game and replace him with Clemens. In Clemens' first ab, I ph with Armas.
Will Armas remain in the 9-spot for the rest of the game, assuming Clemens finishes the game?
Stock, yeah, he should. I'd say try it out and see to be totally sure, but from what I've seen, yes, that is how things will work.
Stock, I just tried it out quickly and, yes, Armas is continues batting in the #9 spot while Clemens pitches.
It works almost like a DH.
Wow, this can be parlayed into a pretty big advantage for player one. Starting with your 4th guy as player one has some benefits now..
For everyone who doesn't get it:
Given any team RBI lists the pitchers to choose from. From top to bottom consider these pitchers to be #1, #2, #3, and #4.
Now, once you use the #4 pitcher and substitute in another pitcher he is out of the game completely. After doing this, as long as you have at least one pitcher left in the bullpen, you can pinch hit for your pitcher and he will still be pitching for the next half-inning.
For Gantry and Stock:
Another note on how things work. Let's say I started with Stanley, immediately brought in Clemens, then pinch hit Armas for Clemens so that Clemens is still pitching. While Clemens is pitching Armas is batting in the 9 spot.
Now, I decide to take Clemens out and put in Hurst. Hurst will be in the 9 spot. But guess what - you can just pinch hit for Hurst now and have him still pitch! All of this works out since you already used up Stanley. So, yes, the best bet is to start out with the #4 pitcher.
This is the extent of the glitch.
Excellent!!!
Wait a sec guys....isn't this CHEATING???
Quote from: gamme on 02/08/06, 04:11:10 PM
Wait a sec guys....isn't this CHEATING???
I'd answer your question if I understood the secret.
Lets try again mclane... The steps
1) You are player #1
2) You have already used the 4th (bottom of the list) pitcher
3) You still have a pitcher in the bullpen
If the above 3 are met, you can pinch hit for pitcher and the game will not take them out when you're on defense. Not only that, but the pinch hitter at the 9 spot will stay in the game until you sub out the pitcher on defense. Got it?
Quote from: Gantry on 02/08/06, 06:13:27 PM
Lets try again mclane...
I don't like your tone.
Quote from: GantryGot it?
Yes, I think so. Definitely gonna go home and try it right away. RBI with a DH, gotta love it.
Quote from: gamme on 02/08/06, 12:15:06 PM
"No player can pinch hit for a pitcher unless there is at least one pitcher in said player's bullpen-regardless if NES allows for such, as this is also an easily correctable glitch."
As for this rule, I dont think the game will make this glitch. Correct me if I'm wrong - the game never allows you to pinch hit when you have nobody in the bullpen.
I'm also trying to figure out if this is a programming glitch or something the programmers intended to happen.
how dare you quote me, gamme!
So what's this glitch about? I mean, how does it work?
the next step is for nightwulf to hack this glitch to be available for player 2 so you can have a psuedo-american league game.
Great fkn work, gamme!
The "Gantry-Player 1-Donnie Moore Started-Substitution Glitch" finally explained.
AKA "Fucked up substitution" in dee-nee.com's RBI Glossary, under Glitches:
A very common glitch in which you pinch hit for the pitcher, yet he's still pitching the following inning. I get this glitch about half the time I play. A somewhat rarer version of this is where you'll pinch hit for the pitcher, sub the pitcher, and the pinch hitter will still be hitting next time the pitcher is up. This glitch seems to be exclusive with the first player.
Quote from: gamme on 02/08/06, 04:11:10 PM
Wait a sec guys....isn't this CHEATING???
Only when JoeDirt does it.
Gantry has it pretty much down pat. My final step in understanding is to see how things work in the next game in a series of games.
Notice how in game 2 of a round they have less pitchers listed to choose from (sometimes 3, other times 2, depending on how many you used).
I'll need some help here since I haven't play that many series games. There are definately times when you start a new game and they give you 3 pitchers to choose from, right? Most of the time they give me all 4 or 2. Let me know how this works.
Once I find this out I will test whether or not the glitch works with the original #4 pitcher or if they make the last pitcher on the list the new "special" pitcher once you begin a new game in the series.
I'll check that out eventually and then we can get all of these ideas out on a webpage somewhere. Yes, it'd be nice to hack this into player 2.
-gamme
Game #2 in a series works as such:
If you a starting pitcher in game 1, he won't be available in game 2.
Relief pitchers are always available in game 2.
So if I pitched one pitcher all the way through then I should have 3 pitchers for game 2?
Yes sir... And if you only use a reliever you should have all 4...
Quote from: gamme on 02/09/06, 11:12:36 PM
So if I pitched one pitcher all the way through then I should have 3 pitchers for game 2?
Not necessarily. If you used a relief pitcher (or relief pitchers) for the entire game 1, you'd have all four pitchers available for game 2.
Screw you Gantry, and screw the "someone has posted a new reply" message.
Alright, the glitch doesnt change when you play a second game.
Obviously if you only have 2 pitchers left, then you aren't going to be able to sub out the 4th pitch and still have one left in the bullpin. But as for having 4 or 3 pitchers in game 2 - things still work the same way as far as I can tell.
Quote from: nightwulf on 02/09/06, 11:17:40 PM
Quote from: gamme on 02/09/06, 11:12:36 PM
So if I pitched one pitcher all the way through then I should have 3 pitchers for game 2?
Not necessarily. If you used a relief pitcher (or relief pitchers) for the entire game 1, you'd have all four pitchers available for game 2.
Screw you Gantry, and screw the "someone has posted a new reply" message.
(http://forums.dee-nee.com/Smileys//new/smitten.gif)
on this date in 2006, gantry used a smiley.
I need specific steps to reproduce this with 100% reliability. So far I've only gotten it to work once.
Please, no...please don't make them explain it again!
I don't want an explanation, 'cause it's apparently not 100% accurate. What I need are detailed steps to reproduce the glitch.
1) Start Donnie Moore
2) Sub him out for any other pitcher
3) Pinch hit for the new pitcher
4) Next inning, that pitcher is still on the mound
"We fixed the glitch."
(http://luminomagazine.com/2004.03/spotlight/officespace/images/bob1/bob1a.jpg)
Ok, the problem is that you have to sub the (fourth) pitcher out while on the mound, not pinch hit for him.
This is tricky. There's a counter variable which runs from 0x00-0x0F (player 1) or from 0x10-0x1F (player 2) that looks for the current pitcher to replace. The problem is a duplicate use of 0x0F (which is where the status of the 4th pitcher of player 1 is stored). 0x0F represents both that pitcher's status and the duration of the loop (0x00-0x0F), and a logic error occurs. This only occurs with player 1 because there's no similar conflict with player 2 (0x0F loop duration, 0x10-0x1F memory offsets).
So I don't have a solution yet ...
You know what? The entire loop is bullshit. There's really no need to use a loop counter, 'cause when p2 is not at bat, it never hits anyway. The loop would continue indefinitely if p2 had no active pitcher.
Fantastic coders at Namco in the mid-80's.
Yeah, that entire block of code is complete nonsense. Here's the fix to remove the glitch:
- Open the ROM in a hex editor.
- Change the byte at offset 0xAEF5 from 0x0F to 0x10.
- (make that 0x1AEF5 if using an "overstuffed" ROM)
or
- Use Game Genie code: AOVZSVYA
It's still complete bullshit code that makes zero sense, but this will at least work correctly.
Where exactly in the hex editor is the status for the 4th pitcher of player 2 stored?
Nightwulf, you're absolutely right. I tried it subbing the 4th pitcher by pinch hitting and the glitch won't work after that. He has to be subbed from the mound.
I have a idea about how to get this for player two (I'm no programmer though).
Bascially, if we can change the duration of the 2nd player counter loop so that the loop duration is the same as the value where the fourth pitcher of player two is stored, then we can have a similar glitch going for player two.
The other idea is to store the fourth pitcher of player two in the spot 0x0F.
This might cause other problems or be impossible to do (I am guessing different pitchers have to be stored in different unique values).
I am guessing since you said the loops are shit, just make a loop for player two that has duration equal to the value where the fourth pitcher of player two is stored.
Let me know if this can be done.
Quote from: nightwulf on 02/11/06, 04:54:08 AM
Yeah, that entire block of code is complete nonsense. Here's the fix to remove the glitch:
- Open the ROM in a hex editor.
- Change the byte at offset 0xAEF5 from 0x0F to 0x10.
- (make that 0x1AEF5 if using an "overstuffed" ROM)
or
- Use Game Genie code: AOVZSVYA
It's still complete bullshit code that makes zero sense, but this will at least work correctly.
Nice work... Any chance we can make this a checkbox on the editor, "remove pitcher substition glitch" or something similar?
Quote from: gamme on 02/11/06, 10:50:21 AM
Bascially, if we can change the duration of the 2nd player counter loop so that the loop duration is the same as the value where the fourth pitcher of player two is stored, then we can have a similar glitch going for player two.
No, because the same block of code is used for either player.
Quote from: gamme on 02/11/06, 10:50:21 AM
The other idea is to store the fourth pitcher of player two in the spot 0x0F.
No, because this is where p1's pitcher 4 status is located ...
Quote from: gamme on 02/11/06, 10:50:21 AM
I am guessing since you said the loops are shit, just make a loop for player two that has duration equal to the value where the fourth pitcher of player two is stored.
It's a gross waste of space really. I'd have to jump out of original code somewhere into a player check, back to original code if p1, or remain in a block of duplicated bullshit code. Why duplicate the glitch?
Quote from: Gantry on 02/11/06, 03:57:35 PM
Nice work... Any chance we can make this a checkbox on the editor, "remove pitcher substition glitch" or something similar?
Yeah, but would anyone use it?
I think folks would like to remove the unfair advantage it gives player one when making ROMs, but then again I think most folks would abuse this...
Why duplicate the glitch?
Because if player one knows about how to work with the glitch then player two should be able to do the same.
Fixing the glitch is just as good, but duplicating for player two would be interesting since people could play as if it was a DH option.
Even cooler still would be to make an entirely new hack that has a non-glitched up DH option included (don't ask me how that would be done). I'm sure it isn't an easy task.
I was so confused about this, but OctoFranco used it last night to perfection. Awesome glitch.
I'm an idiot, but let me ask a few questions anyhow.
1) Does the PH in the 9 hole get the 64 point bonus on any at bat following his first? (i.e. Stinky Sully his second time around in the 9 hole, would he get the PH bonus?)
2) Could this work for player 2 if you had a 2 player pause thing going on?
Without the hard facts, the odds are highly likely that the answer to both is no.
Quote from: Attezz on 02/11/06, 05:24:19 PM
1) Does the PH in the 9 hole get the 64 point bonus on any at bat following his first? (i.e. Stinky Sully his second time around in the 9 hole, would he get the PH bonus?)
No. Batter data is stored in the ROM. When a batter "steps up," information is copied from the ROM to a certain area of RAM for easier access. Once a new batter (of the same team) steps up, the information from the ROM for that batter overwrites whatever was there before.
So, in a PH situation, the new batter's data is loaded from the ROM, copied to RAM, and the PH bonus is applied as a part of the PH process. The next time that batter comes up, information is again loaded from ROM, but the PH process doesn't run this time, so no bonus is added.
Quote from: Attezz on 02/11/06, 05:24:19 PM
2) Could this work for player 2 if you had a 2 player pause thing going on?
No. The 2-player pause hack simply changes code from "call time if 1p start is pressed" to "call time if 1p or 2p start is pressed." Subsequent code used in time (PH, new pitcher) is unchanged.
Quote from: gamme on 02/11/06, 10:09:31 AM
Where exactly in the hex editor is the status for the 4th pitcher of player 2 stored?
Sorry, I was out of caffeine earlier, so this reply had to wait.
If you're running in an emulator which supports a real-time hex editor, check out 0x0640-0x065F. Pitcher status for p1 is stored in 0x064C-0x064F (for pitchers 1-4, respectively), and pitcher status for p2 is located at 0x065C-0x065F. Three values are possible in each of those locations:
0x00 - This pitcher is currently unused but available.
0x09 - This pitcher is the current pitcher.
0xFF - This pitcher has been taken out of the game, and is no longer available.
If you watch this while subbing out the 4th pitcher for p1 (while he's on the mound), you'll see that the 0x09 at 0x064F is not changed to 0xFF to indicate that the pitcher has been used. Here's why that's important ...
Between (half) innings, the game looks at those locations (0x064C-0x064F for p1). If it finds 0x09 in any of those spaces, the game knows that there is a current pitcher, and the new (half of the) inning starts. Because of the glitch, 0x09 is left sitting at 0x064F instead of being changed to 0xFF. The code "sees" the 0x09, so therefore there must be a current pitcher, and the game doesn't prompt you to select a new one.
This is also why you must switch out the pitcher while on the mound, and not just pinch hit for him. The code that changes pitcher status after bringing in a PH in the 9th spot works fine. The errant code runs when a pitcher is subbed off of the mound.
So that's the glitch in a nutshell. 0x064F is not properly updated to 0xFF to indicate that the 4th pitcher has been removed from the game. Before p1 comes up to bat again, the game looks at those locations and finds 0x09 at 0x064F, and is therefore satisfied that there is indeed a current pitcher on the mound. Gameplay continues with the currently-loaded pitcher, and the ID of the batter in the 9 spot is left unchanged from the PH who was brought in.
Thanks, nightwulf, I will continue studying this.
2 more quick questions:
1) What is an emulator that has real time hex code going?
2) What exactly does the fix at 0xAEF5 do in terms of how the code of the game is flowing?
Quote from: gamme on 02/11/06, 06:22:06 PM
1) What is an emulator that has real time hex code going?
Well, a lot of them do these days. Here's the three I use that come to mind:
- FCEUXD SP (http://www.the-interweb.com/serendipity/index.php?/categories/9-FCEUXD-SP)
This is the emulator I use pretty much full time now. Included is a 6502 debugger, name table viewer, and other features which make it a must-have for NES development.
- FCEU
No longer in development, but still a good emulator. The debugging and development tools aren't anywhere near FCEUXD SP's level, but if all you're looking for is real-time RAM viewing, it's available by clicking "Memory ..." from the debugger window.
- NNNesterJ (http://www.emulation9.com/nnnesterj/)
Another emulator that I used to use frequently, but it's been surpassed by FCEUXD SP in about every way.
Quote from: gamme on 02/11/06, 06:22:06 PM
2) What exactly does the fix at 0xAEF5 do in terms of how the code of the game is flowing?
It changes the (useless) loop counter from 0x00-0x0F (0-16) to 0x00-0x10 (0-17). Absolute nonsense from a logic point-of-view, but it stops the "mark the pitcher you're swapping out as used/inactive" loop from exiting early.