Here's my take on why Houston is an underrated offense, and Minn is horribly overrated (and in my opinon the worst offense).
I am assuming certain substitutions are made.
Hatcher/ Gladden- Hatcher is better- neither has pop, but Hatcher has excellent speed.
Cruz/ Gaetti- Gaetti is way better.
Garner/ Puckett- Puckett is better but not by as much as experts think
Davis/ Hrbek- Depends on whether you like lefties or righties. I like same handed hitters, and most pitchers are righty.
Bass/ Bruno- Bruno better
Puhl/ Gagne- Puhl by far
Lopes/ Laudner- Lopes is in my opinion the second best non-Boston bench player in the league
Ashby/ Smalley- Tie
I am still leaving Thon on bench, who is no worse than scrubs Larkin and the other two jagoffs.
So they are close, but I am so in love with Lopes that I like the Stros better. Not one guy on Minn can steal a base either.
Pitching staffs are basically a dead heat also- but that is for another thread.
I will crush you every time with Minn against Hou.
No way Davis = Hrbek
I would generally agree that with Big Apple's synopsis. I like to use Houston, because I didn't expect much, but always felt like I should get more from Min
Quote from: ultimate7 on 01/20/05, 01:47:52 PM
I will crush you every time with Minn against Hou.
No way Davis = Hrbek
Bring it.
Minnesota is not a good team, but the heart of their order (2 - 5) is by far much better than Houston. Lopes is a very useful player, but nobody can save that team. The only real advantage I can see for Houston is the pitching staff. In my opinion, that's all they have going for them.
I agree that there are certain comperable players in the Minn and Hou lineup. But the places where there are differences end up being huge. Gaetti, Puckett, Hrbek, and Bruno arent just better than Cruz, Garner, Davis, and Bass .... they are way fucking better. The heart of the Minn lineup is solid ... no questions asked. I know Puckett is always a dissapointment, but still these guys can hit bombs and score. Besides Davis (who is by no means a great hitter) there is nobody who can hit an easy homer. This is the main reason Houston is so anemic. The heart of their lineup is just piss poor. The cant make up for that with alleged minor advantages in the 1, 6, 7, and 8 spots.
btw i agree that gagne is not as good as puhl. but to imply that puhl is much better would suggest that puhl is something of an elite player. look i love terry puhl as much as the next guy but hes not all that good. true, he is a lefty with a touch of speed and power. but he is not a great player. the difference btw puhl and gag me isnt huge.
I also see Laudro and Lopes in the same kind of light. depending on your style of play, either can be seen as better than the other. still neither is 'elite'. i personally prefers laudros power to the speed of lopes.
On another note, I love the 86 stros and i wish they were a great team. ive tried many times to rationalize using them. but eventually all houston fans must face the fact that they suck. the soonere you understand this the better. Go ahead and take on all comers in a Hou v Minn showdown. But dont take it hard when the stros lose again and again.
Quote from: GreatScott on 01/20/05, 02:27:00 PM
look i love terry puhl as much as the next guy
quote of the day right there.
i agree with some of your points. the heart of the minn lineup is way better, but to say laudner is like lopes is simply an ill-informed opinion. lopes off bench has huge power- his combination of speed and power is tim burks-ian. five tools. and i say this as a guy that lived in wisconsin for the better part of a decade... too bad lopes can't manage his way out of a brown paper fucking bag. however, laudner brings nothing to table, in fact i sometimes opt for '87 playoff hero gene larkin.
bottom line- you can pitch around minn's heart. their 6 through 1 is so bad that you can shut them out if you can induce bruno a few times. with lopes in 7 spot, hou's lineup is longer than minn's.
Launder has way more power than Lopes, Lopes is not in Burk's class, though he is very fast.
Quote from: ultimate7 on 01/20/05, 02:43:56 PM
Launder has way more power than Lopes, Lopes is not in Burk's class, though he is very fast.
According to dee nee team reviews, Laudner is 879 power, Lopes is 795 to start plus 64 pinch hitting boost in first AB equals 859.
So dee nee agrees with you.
Question- where do these numbers come from (let me preface by saying I don't know what the word emulator means)
That number is the actual power number programmed for the game, how the game designer decided on them no one knows.
To put it simply, an emulator is a program that allows you to use software that is intended for another type of system. In this case, an NES emulator allows you to play NES games on your computer.
Quote from: ultimate7 on 01/20/05, 03:19:36 PM
That number is the actual power number programmed for the game, how the game designer decided on them no one knows.
how did gantry acquire this information?
Hexadecimal editor to read the ROM file.
i would have used the septadecimal reader.
I didnt realize it at first but you actually sub reynolds. the guy is a total stud (in that lack luster houston lineup. if you are gonna put in lopes, why not sub out ashby or even hatcher?
Let me first say that this is my very favorite thing about dee-nee....the RBI theory and preferences discussion. I cannot believe that in 2005, people still talk about RBI Baseball, circa 1987, in such detail! :)
As far as the Hou/Minn discussion goes, I think it really depends on how exactly you play. Some people are dead set against IBB. If that's the case, then Minn is a much better team. But if you strictly play to win and are willing to walk around batters 2-5, then Minn isn't much of a team. The only blessing in this case is that the P is much more apt to tire.
In either situation, though, I believe Minn is a better team because of their pitching. Ryan and Scott are pretty good, but it's so valuable to have a leftie (I agree with Big Apple--as a pitcher, it's nice to be the opposite hand of the batter). And Blyleven can go on for days at a time. I also think Minn's bullpen is better. Reardon, in my opinion, is solid. Berenguer is quality for one inning....whereas Kerfield sucks (just my opinion) and Smith isn't much better.
Quote from: GreatScott on 01/20/05, 04:35:40 PM
I didnt realize it at first but you actually sub reynolds. the guy is a total stud (in that lack luster houston lineup. if you are gonna put in lopes, why not sub out ashby or even hatcher?
That's a great point. He's second in power to Glenn Davis. On the rare occasion that I use Houston, I always have Lopes leading off.
I always bench Reynolds, too. But Big Apple and I both prefer to bat with the same hand as the pitcher...and there are clearly more righties--so it soon became habit.
I think that the finality of this discussion is that at any given time, Hou and Minn can both be no hit.
Great discussion gentlemen, kudos to Big Apple for the topic...
I have the straight pitch mentality, so this is an easy decision - Minnesota all the way. 2-5 (plus Laudner) are too much for Houston to match. I personally think Randy Bush is the best sub on Minnesota by a large margin, but Mn's bench is horrible. Here is my straight pitch lineup:
1 - Bush
2 - GARRRRRR
3 - Puckett
4 - Hrbek
5 - Bruno
6 - Flip a coing between gagne & smalley
7 - Laundromat
8 - Dee-Nee Larkin
The problem is 6-7-8-9 are all capable of laying eggs, and they do more often than not. Only Laudner is capable of anything huge there, yet another streaky seven hitter. I have more success with Bush than Puckett, but it could be our straight-pitch style that avails lefties...
Houston, on the other hand, just don't have anything to come near what Hrbek & Bruno give you every game. I like Reynolds Wrap and Garner myself, but they still are streaky at best. You need horses who play game-in and game-out to win, and for me Houston doesn't have that...
And to reply to myself, I completely agree with Big Apple's original assessment - Minnesota's offense is overrated...
I agree with your line up, Gantry....that's pretty close to what I'd use in curve...
I sometimes just leave Lombardozi in, though--not at all because he's good, but more becuase I'll bring a PH in that spot as soon as a runner is on base and the spot is up...oh, and also it kills Riley when I hit a homer with him. :)
Joe Dirt loves it when I beat his ass with 3 homer games from HrBek!
QuoteI sometimes just leave Lombardozi in, though--not at all because he's good, but more becuase I'll bring a PH in that spot as soon as a runner is on base and the spot is up...oh, and also it kills Riley when I hit a homer with him.
I can see why you would in curve, especially since the SP it tough to hit the first inning or two. You should use the PH for chances when it's needed. We honestly don't do this enough in straight, we pretty much sub all our guys on their 1st AB. THe only exception is the Bergman-for-Lemon sub with a runner on...
Quote from: Gantry on 01/20/05, 08:51:03 PM
I can see why you would in curve, especially since the SP it tough to hit the first inning or two. You should use the PH for chances when it's needed. We honestly don't do this enough in straight, we pretty much sub all our guys on their 1st AB. THe only exception is the Bergman-for-Lemon sub with a runner on...
Generally speaking, I do not subscribe to this practice. I agree with the straight pitch theory--get the best hitter in there from the get-go.
But I just sometimes leave Lombo in because all of the Minn PHs suck (especially since Bush is usually in the line up by the time the 8 spot rolls around).
I also sometimes just say F it with Gladden and leave him in and try to foul off as many pitches as possible. He sucks. I think he's the worst "hitter" on the team.
Great discussion.
While I love playing with Houston because they suck and it's extremely fun beating your opponent with a shitty team, I would take Minnesota every time if the game actually meant something.
I'm probably as big a Lopes fan as anybody as well, but their offense just doesn't stack up.
My lineups for both teams:
Minnesota
1) Bush
2) Spaghetti
3) Kirby
4) Fat
5) Burnzky
6) GagMe
7) Laudner
8) Larkin
Minnesota is nothing but bashers. Their offense can be anemic at times, but I tend to explode with homers every now and then. If you're able to tire out a pitcher or catch your opponent sleeping, big innings are always a possibility with this team.
Fat and Burnzky are an extremely formidable duo and can hit bombs all day and night. If they're having an off game and don't get going, the chances of winning are nil.
Their weak spots are obviously the 6 and 8 spots and perhaps even the 3. While I'm like everyone else and expect a lot more from Kirby, he's at least serviceable and can produce when least expected.
Their pitching staff is in my opinion one of the best. Frankie V is a crafty lefty with a nice changeup and Bert can pitch all night and drop his changeup consistently in the late innings. The bullpen is definitely better than average and provides a hard-throwing contrast to the starters.
Houston
1) Lopes
2) Cruz
3) Garner
4) GDavis
5) KBass
6) Doran
7) Reynolds
8) DThon
For me, Houston is strictly a small ball team. I prefer to slap the ball around and take extra bases at every opportunity since most of their team has above-average speed. While this is fun to do it unfortunately does not equate to a large amount of wins.
I think Nolan is far too predictable and his changeup is subpar at best. Add in the fact that they have ZERO bullpen, and the Astros get me into trouble more often than not. I do have to mention Mike Scott, the king of the nasty changeup. Sometimes I think he has a tool chest hidden in the mound somewhere.
Having said all that, there isn't a team in RBI that makes a win more enjoyable than Houston.
Good writeup mclane, I agree with the houston synopsis... that is pretty much my lineup except for the eighth (or as you would call it, smiley) hitter. History has me using Puhl there but now I leave Assby in there and see what he can do. He has been servicable lately and has gotten more TP as a result...
The "fun factor" you touch on is also important. Houston and Stl and small ball teams and fun to play with. Minnesota is middle-of-the-pack, has few enjoyable hitters and to be honest is not that fun to play with. They are the Mets are my least used teams...
The summer that I was 12, every weekend saw my best friend and I play World Series sets with Hou / SL.
We kept stats, named MVPs --- everything.
It seemed like Tony Pena always got clutch hits for us.
Glenn Davis sucked monkey nuts. Dickie Thon and Terry Puhl were clutch.
I've always hated playing against Min. I absolutely hated facing Viola.
QuoteHe has been servicable lately and has gotten more TP as a result...
You reward your players with toilet paper for good play? So, if a guy's sucking it up, you make him wipe with his hand or something?
I agree with the majority here - Minnesota is overrated but still better than Houston.
Excellent discussion.
1, I picked up some valuable info from this thread- that Reynolds Wrap can actually play. I had no idea he was even serviceable, never mind a stud. I will use him and report back once I have a large enough sample to comment. (should be by noon)
B, someone commented that IBB's can tire pitcher out which is true, but you can also hit the batter instead so you don't waste pitches (plus I derive pleasure from drilling Puckett).
3, as I said before, I love Bruno, and because of my IBB strategy, he bats a lot with men on. So Minn can certainly explode.
Bottom line though- everyone seems to put Minn over Houston, yet they still acknowledge that 6-7-8-9-1 are terrible (with possible exception of Laundro).
Re: pitching, I think Kerfeld is a stud if you can effectively use sidearmers. I think bullpens are basically the same. Starters I prefer Minnesota because I like curveball artists better, and Ryan seems to have a full tank until the 5th and then just burn out and have nothing. There is nothing gradual about his loss of heat.
Quote from: Big Apple RBI Champ on 01/21/05, 08:58:51 AM
Re: pitching, I think Kerfeld is a stud if you can effectively use sidearmers. I think bullpens are basically the same. Starters I prefer Minnesota because I like curveball artists better, and Ryan seems to have a full tank until the 5th and then just burn out and have nothing. There is nothing gradual about his loss of heat.
I like Kerfeld, and sidearmers in general. They can be very effective in jamming hitters and hitting outside corners if you know how to maneuver them. Both teams have great starting pitching for different reasons. It would be hard for me to pick which one I liked better. I'd probably go with Houston. I've been into right-handed power pitching lately.
Side note: what does everybody think about hitting against sidearm pitchers? Saberhagen when on his game can often give me trouble.
I face a sidearmer so infrequently that everytime I do face one, it throws me off for a little while....
QuoteB, someone commented that IBB's can tire pitcher out which is true, but you can also hit the batter instead so you don't waste pitches (plus I derive pleasure from drilling Puckett).
It's not too horribly hard to avoid a beaning, though, especially if the pitcher is the same hand as the batter. It'd have to be a fastball to get there quick enough to be dodged, and in that case it may not have enough curve to get to the hitter.
QuoteSide note: what does everybody think about hitting against sidearm pitchers? Saberhagen when on his game can often give me trouble.
I've always liked using sidearmers and hated hitting against them, but I played slurve & straight pitch growing up (and more RBI 2 and 3 than the original), so I don't know how effective they are in anything-goes games. I do know that the few in RBI 2 and 3 can be vicious - with a good player pitching, Eck's slingshot 100 MPH delivery is tough as hell to hit. RBI 2 changed the style of the sidearm a little, though (it's harder to tell when the ball is released), so I don't think that's a relevant comparison.
Am I alone in liking Billy Hatcher? I usually leave him in, but I really don't have a great reason for why. Maybe it's personal bias, because of his presence on the '90 Reds. Do most of you sub Hatcher?
I don't sub Hatcher
Hatcher is out of there everytime for me. Lopes is the perfect replacement (and there leadoff hitter) - a healthy power increase, lefty and slightly faster. I consider him Hatcher to be the worst starting Astro, and that's saying something...
I sub Hatcher every time. I can see why someone may want to leave him in and then use Lopes for a late-game pinch-hit. But I always felt Lopes was too good of a hitter* to leave him out.
*good, meaning compared to the rest of the lineup
Hatcher sucks balls. He has decent speed but that's really about it. With the beast that is Lopes ready and waiting on the bench, I never let Hatcher get an at-bat.
Side arm pitchers can be a bitch...
Hatcher does suck ... but can everyone please get off davey lopes' cock? Hes a got a 795 power rating! Sure with a ph power rating boost he can hit bombs ... but so can mark sullivan. Statitically he is roughly the same player as GREG GAGNE (speed aside). Please stop the Davey Lopes love fest
Quote from: GreatScott on 01/21/05, 11:00:05 AM
Hatcher does suck ... but can everyone please get off davey lopes' cock? Hes a got a 795 power rating! Sure with a ph power rating boost he can hit bombs ... but so can mark sullivan. Statitically he is roughly the same player as GREG GAGNE (speed aside). Please stop the Davey Lopes love fest
This cracks me up. You're absolutely right. He just a lot better when compared to others in the lineup. But, his power-stache is sexy.
I will never get off Lopes' cock but I understand your point. I like him not for his power but his speed and speed alone. He's second only to Vince.
If Lopes wasn't on Houston he probably wouldn't get as much love. But that fucker does perform for me, and it's always fun to play with superfast guys. But we should be brought back to earth, thanks GreatScott...
Quote from: Nails on 01/21/05, 09:37:19 AM
I've been into right-handed power pitching lately.
Nails, we don't need to hear about your fetishes.
Re: Hatcher- If I am playing against someone that doesn't know the "trick" to throwing out basestealers then I leave Hatcher. If they can throw out runners, then I get him out of there.
Re: Lopes- I'll give him rimjobs until the day I die. I am suspicious of the accuracy of the power numbers, and the pinch hit boost number (plus 84). Lopes rips it every time I use him. Five tools.
Re: beaning guys- a hitter can get out of the way by "cheating" back in the box, but if a guy does that, then i'll hit the outside corner with a strike. he won't cheat after that because he has to protect the plate.
I always PH Lopes for Garvey on the Arcade version
I just got a Dave Lopes autographed card out of a pack around Christmas. I'll try to find a pic online, since I don't have a scanner.
I usually sub Lopes for Doran, and Thon for Ashby and leave the other two to sub in a power situation, or for a pitcher.
I'm going to try the Lopes for Hatcher switch this weekend out of respect for all who have posted in its defense
Here is a pic of the Lopes card I got. Obviously, he's the guy that looks like Cheech Marin
I don't think getting out of the way of a bean ball requires the batter to be all the way in the back corner of the box...especially after the first inning of the pitcher. I think it's not terribly difficult to get out of the way of a beaning, actually.
I agree it is fairly easy to get out of the way with most pitchers, but you do have to cheat somewhat, so the pitcher can catch the outside corner on 1-0, and you can at least make the guy think about it, and perhaps even get him to swing at a bad pitch on 1-1 to make it 1-2, and then you can go after him instead of walking him.
With a huge curveball artist like Bertus or Tutski, I would guess you can't avoid a beanball until the 4th or 5th inning.
Quote from: Big Apple RBI Champ on 01/21/05, 11:40:33 AM
Re: Lopes- I'll give him rimjobs until the day I die. I am suspicious of the accuracy of the power numbers, and the pinch hit boost number (plus 84). Lopes rips it every time I use him. Five tools.
Damn, talk about fetishes ;)
The 64 power boost from 795 puts him up to 859 (1st pinch hit only). That gives him more power than the likes of Alan Trammell, Matt Nokes, Don Mattingly, Al Pedrique... to name a few.
Quote from: Big Apple RBI Champ on 01/21/05, 11:40:33 AM
Re: Lopes- I'll give him rimjobs until the day I die. I am suspicious of the accuracy of the power numbers, and the pinch hit boost number (plus 84). Lopes rips it every time I use him. Five tools.
Yes, be very suspicious of something you can read yourself with a hex editor and a calculator. I'd quote lines of code to show the pinch hitter first-AB bonus, but I'd have to explain assembler. Then you'd be suspicious of my explanation.
Nightwulf
Quote from: ericdavisfan on 01/21/05, 01:34:51 PM
I'm going to try the Lopes for Hatcher switch this weekend out of respect for all who have posted in its defense
I don't think you'll be disappointed, especially if you connect well with that first at bat.
Ashby sucks, alwasy sub him and his clone Hashby. They dont deserve to live.
Bump. This was a pretty good discussion about Houston.
interesting thread. i believe big apples problem was he wasnt that educated on the players abilities. I think MIN is better by quite a bit. not a complete landslide or anything but desively better. MIN has some holes for sure, but gaetti thru Brunansky is a fairly solid 4 hitters. hell, Min almost reminds me of SF in that decent, but not elite power line-up. laudner also changes the game a little cause you almost have to just pitch around him, and sometimes put him on base.
I'm not sold on lopes power cause with the bonus hes not that great. if i really wanna utilize lopes i'll bat him 3rd for Walling. giving you some great speed off the top 3. thats the best line-up i believe that HOU can assemble. Gives you a fighting chance to put a man on and move him around.
I particularly enjoy nightwulf's responses to people who question the accuracy of the ratings.
another glaring issue i see with this debate is that i really like at least 1 lefty on the staff(and i assume most other do as well). without this i think it cements HOU as worse team compared to MIN.
I cannot and will not accept that any reasonably good RBI player can think that Ho is better (or even close) to any other team in the game. Period.
I could accept if they think they are close to STL, but no other team, they are not close to Minn. If 2 even players using Minn and Hou, Minn should win at least 90% of the time
Quote from: ultimate7 on 07/23/07, 11:26:54 AM
I could accept if they think they are close to STL, but no other team, they are not close to Minn. If 2 even players using Minn and Hou, Minn should win at least 90% of the time
sounds like you found the next watch league idea
JoeDirt at the previous COTUT was in a marathon game against Minnesota, definitely went extra innings. I can't remember who he playing with but he basically walked Bruno & Hrbek everytime to get to Gagne. It worked like a charm (though I think Joe lost this game, but it was on a fielding mistake and not a strategy issue) and that lack of a quality 6 hitter really kills Minnesota...
Though with much more experience in curve (you know, those 12 games that makes me an expert) I have to say that Houston is NOWHERE NEAR the level of Minnesota. Even with a quality two starters, Houston's hitting just kills them. You can throw strikes to them all day with little repercussion, and that saves your pitching and keeps runs off the table.
Also, Dave Smith is absolutely terrible. Good lord does he suck - I almost cost myself a game out of ignorance because I put him in and pretty much couldn't throw a ball based on my mound location. Easily the worst pitcher out of the Mn/Ho stable...