Hou underrated, Minn overrated

[Big Apple RBI Champ]

Here's my take on why Houston is an underrated offense, and Minn is horribly overrated (and in my opinon the worst offense).

I am assuming certain substitutions are made.

Hatcher/ Gladden- Hatcher is better- neither has pop, but Hatcher has excellent speed.
Cruz/ Gaetti- Gaetti is way better.
Garner/ Puckett- Puckett is better but not by as much as experts think
Davis/ Hrbek- Depends on whether you like lefties or righties.  I like same handed hitters, and most pitchers are righty.
Bass/ Bruno- Bruno better
Puhl/ Gagne- Puhl by far
Lopes/ Laudner- Lopes is in my opinion the second best non-Boston bench player in the league
Ashby/ Smalley- Tie

I am still leaving Thon on bench, who is no worse than scrubs Larkin and the other two jagoffs.

So they are close, but I am so in love with Lopes that I like the Stros better.  Not one guy on Minn can steal a base either.

Pitching staffs are basically a dead heat also- but that is for another thread.

[ultimate7]

I will crush you every time with Minn against Hou.

No way Davis = Hrbek

[ericdavisfan]

I would generally agree that with Big Apple's synopsis.   I like to use Houston, because I didn't expect much, but always felt like I should get more from Min

[Big Apple RBI Champ]

I will crush you every time with Minn against Hou.

No way Davis = Hrbek

Bring it.

[Nails]

Minnesota is not a good team, but the heart of their order (2 - 5) is by far much better than Houston.    Lopes is a very useful player, but nobody can save that team.  The only real advantage I can see for Houston is the pitching staff.   In my opinion, that's all they have going for them.

[GreatScott]

I agree that there are certain comperable players in the Minn and Hou lineup.  But the places where there are differences end up being huge.  Gaetti, Puckett, Hrbek, and Bruno arent just better than Cruz, Garner, Davis, and Bass .... they are way fucking better.  The heart of the Minn lineup is solid ... no questions asked.  I know Puckett is always a dissapointment, but still these guys can hit bombs and score.  Besides Davis (who is by no means a great hitter) there is nobody who can hit an easy homer.  This is the main reason Houston is so anemic.  The heart of their lineup is just piss poor.  The cant make up for that with alleged minor advantages in the 1, 6, 7, and 8 spots.  

btw i agree that gagne is not as good as puhl.  but to imply that puhl is much better would suggest that puhl is something of an elite player.  look i love terry puhl as much as the next guy but hes not all that good.  true, he is a lefty with a touch of speed and power.  but he is not a great player.  the difference btw puhl and gag me isnt huge.  

I also see Laudro and Lopes in the same kind of light.  depending on your style of play, either can be seen as better than the other.  still neither is 'elite'.  i personally prefers laudros power to the speed of lopes.  

On another note, I love the 86 stros and i wish they were a great team.  ive tried many times to rationalize using them.  but eventually all houston fans must face the fact that they suck.  the soonere you understand this the better.  Go ahead and take on all comers in a Hou v Minn showdown.  But dont take it hard when the stros lose again and again.  

[Big Apple RBI Champ]

look i love terry puhl as much as the next guy  

quote of the day right there.

i agree with some of your points.  the heart of the minn lineup is way better, but to say laudner is like lopes is simply an ill-informed opinion.  lopes off bench has huge power- his combination of speed and power is tim burks-ian.  five tools.  and i say this as a guy that lived in wisconsin for the better part of a decade... too bad lopes can't manage his way out of a brown paper fucking bag.  however, laudner brings nothing to table, in fact i sometimes opt for '87 playoff hero gene larkin.

bottom line- you can pitch around minn's heart.  their 6 through 1 is so bad that you can shut them out if you can induce bruno a few times.  with lopes in 7 spot, hou's lineup is longer than minn's.

[ultimate7]

Launder has way more power than Lopes, Lopes is not in Burk's class, though he is very fast.

[Big Apple RBI Champ]

Launder has way more power than Lopes, Lopes is not in Burk's class, though he is very fast.

According to dee nee team reviews, Laudner is 879 power, Lopes is 795 to start plus 64 pinch hitting boost in first AB equals 859. 

So dee nee agrees with you.

Question- where do these numbers come from (let me preface by saying I don't know what the word emulator means)

[ultimate7]

That number is the actual power number programmed for the game, how the game designer decided on them no one knows.

[Nails]

To put it simply, an emulator is a program that allows you to use software that is intended for another type of system.   In this case, an NES emulator allows you to play NES games on your computer.

[Big Apple RBI Champ]

That number is the actual power number programmed for the game, how the game designer decided on them no one knows.

how did gantry acquire this information?

[Nails]

Hexadecimal editor to read the ROM file.

[Big Apple RBI Champ]

i would have used the septadecimal reader.

[GreatScott]

I didnt realize it at first but you actually sub reynolds.  the guy is a total stud (in that lack luster houston lineup.  if you are gonna put in lopes, why not sub out ashby or even hatcher?

[JoeDirt]

Let me first say that this is my very favorite thing about dee-nee....the RBI theory and preferences discussion.  I cannot believe that in 2005, people still talk about RBI Baseball, circa 1987, in such detail! 

As far as the Hou/Minn discussion goes, I think it really depends on how exactly you play.  Some people are dead set against IBB.  If that's the case, then Minn is a much better team.  But if you strictly play to win and are willing to walk around batters 2-5, then Minn isn't much of a team.  The only blessing in this case is that the P is much more apt to tire.

In either situation, though, I believe Minn is a better team because of their pitching.  Ryan and Scott are pretty good, but it's so valuable to have a leftie (I agree with Big Apple--as a pitcher, it's nice to be the opposite hand of the batter).  And Blyleven can go on for days at a time.  I also think Minn's bullpen is better.  Reardon, in my opinion, is solid.  Berenguer is quality for one inning....whereas Kerfield sucks (just my opinion) and Smith isn't much better.

[Nails]

I didnt realize it at first but you actually sub reynolds. the guy is a total stud (in that lack luster houston lineup. if you are gonna put in lopes, why not sub out ashby or even hatcher?

That's a great point.  He's second in power to Glenn Davis.  On the rare occasion that I use Houston, I always have Lopes leading off.

[JoeDirt]

I always bench Reynolds, too.  But Big Apple and I both prefer to bat with the same hand as the pitcher...and there are clearly more righties--so it soon became habit.

I think that the finality of this discussion is that at any given time, Hou and Minn can both be no hit.

[Gantry]

Great discussion gentlemen, kudos to Big Apple for the topic...

I have  the straight pitch mentality, so this is an easy decision - Minnesota all the way.  2-5 (plus Laudner) are too much for Houston to match.   I personally think Randy Bush is the best sub on Minnesota by a large margin, but Mn's bench is horrible.   Here is my straight pitch lineup:

1 - Bush
2 - GARRRRRR
3 - Puckett
4 - Hrbek
5 - Bruno
6 - Flip a coing between gagne & smalley
7 - Laundromat
8 - Dee-Nee Larkin

The problem is 6-7-8-9 are all capable of laying eggs, and they do more often than not.  Only Laudner is capable of anything huge there, yet another streaky seven hitter.   I have more success with Bush than Puckett, but it could be our straight-pitch style that avails lefties...

Houston, on the other hand, just don't have anything to come near what Hrbek & Bruno give you every game.  I like Reynolds Wrap and Garner myself, but they still are streaky at best.  You need horses who play game-in and game-out to win, and for me Houston doesn't have that...

[Gantry]

And to reply to myself, I completely agree with Big Apple's original assessment - Minnesota's offense is overrated...