http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-0506280177jun28,1,2586670.story
Talking about the HOF and Blyleven, scroll past the first part about Jordan...
Blyleven should definitely be in the hall, to me it's a no-brainer. Morris I'm not sure on...
They should both be in.
I'm considered a liberal HOF'er though.
the BR stats are very cool --- and as far as I an tell are pretty accurate.
There are a lot of HOF guys that don't come close to qualifying with the BR ratings.
They are just ahead of HOF'er and one of my buddy Nick's favorite pitchers from the old era Chief Bender...
Blyleven and Morris should be in. Ron Santo....not a chance.
Quote from: Superood on 06/29/05, 10:16:08 AM
Blyleven and Morris should be in. Ron Santo....not a chance.
You're an idiot. Ron Santo is pretty clearly one of the 10 best third basemen in history, and is easily the single greatest oversight of the HOF to date. Blyleven is so overqualified, it isn't even funny.
Jack Morris? Other than his oft-quoted "winningest pitcher of the 80s" crap, what exactly did he do well? One 10 inning game with the blue jays does not a HOF'er make.
And while I've always liked Chief Bender, he doesn't belong in the HOF, either. The HOF monitor numbers were always designed to reflect certain perceived voter standards at the time bill james set them up. Of course, standards change quite a bit over time, and it's clear from general consensus in the last few years that a number of statistics which are not included in the HOF monitor are getting a lot more attention.
Good info Dryden on the HOF monitor, but lay off the "idiot" remarks. You New Yorkers are always so salty...
I never really knew much about Bender, my buddy Nick and I used to draft all-time players and have a season on Tony Larussa's baseball on the PC. Great times, we drafted players and got to use their best seasons. I made a killing off my big two old-timers, Ed Walsh and Addie Joss...
Santo is a no brainer, I'm guessing superod is just making that statement tongue in cheeck as a cub hater, happy that Ron Santo isn't in the Hall, not really basing on accomplishments.
Quote from: Gantry on 06/29/05, 10:44:35 AM
Good info Dryden on the HOF monitor, but lay off the "idiot" remarks. You New Yorkers are always so salty...
I never really knew much about Bender, my buddy Nick and I used to draft all-time players and have a season on Tony Larussa's baseball on the PC. Great times, we drafted players and got to use their best seasons. I made a killing off my big two old-timers, Ed Walsh and Addie Joss...
Yeah, you know how it is - we give people shit because we care. Bender's actually a very interesting story - one of the 2 best native american ballplayers along with "Indian" Bob Johnson, who probably does belong in the HOF, except that he played on some of the all-time worst Philadelphia Athletics teams ever.
Let's look at the HOF third basemen, shall we?
Mike Schmidt - Clearly the best, and it's not that close (at least, once you combine fielding and hitting)
George Brett - About Schmidt's equal with the bat, but no real fielding ability. Nice long career, though.
Eddie Mathews - A truly great young player, but washed up young. No fielding ability here, either.
Frank Baker - Eddie Mathews for the deadball era. A truly great player, hell of a defender, too. Actually, probably better than Mathews.
Wade Boggs - He hit real good.
Jimmy Collins - Revolutionized the way third basemen play, possibly the greatest fielding third baseman ever (compared to his era, anyway). Hit better than, say, Brooks Robinson, too.
Brooks Robinson - Couldn't really hit, but a great fielder. More legend than reality.
Pie Traynor - Really nowhere near as good as history suggests. Hit like Robinson, but without as much with the glove. Why so many think he is the greatest is totally mindboggling.
George Kell - What is he doing in the hall of fame? It's a mystery. He has no qualifications whatso-freaking-ever.
Freddie Lindstrom - He was buddies with Frankie Frisch. No, really, that's all he's got.
So, in that context, let's look at Ron Santo: He fielded better than anyone except Schmidt, Collins and Robinson, and hit better than anyone except Schmidt, Brett, Mathews, Baker and Boggs. What do those 5 men, as batters, have over Santo? They played in much higher offensive contexts. To keep him out of the HOF is an ongoing travesty.
I can't explain Kell. Both he and Robinson are from Arkansas.
Santo's lack of membership is perplexing to me. What did the guy have to do to get in?
He won GGs -- not as many as Legendary Brooks Robinson -- but still more than most. He hit a shit ton better than Robinson. He was the dominant thirdbaseman of this time. He's a no brainer.
Nevermind the fact that he played with serious Diabetes his entire career.
Quote from: Ryno on 06/29/05, 11:42:58 AM
What doe the guy have to do to get in?
Die, really he will get in after he dies, why the don't let him in now, it just seems like they want to torture the guy.
I find it odd that 3B is considered a "power" or "offense" position, yet the hall of fame doesn't have that many guys in it that played 3B.
BR has Santo at 40.9 on the HOF Standards, 88 on the HOF Monitor.
They have Brooks (his AL Counterpart) at 34 and 128.
I'm confused by Brooks high HOF Monitor rating. He was that great of a hitter -- he just played a really long time. His avg season was .267/15/76 with a .401 slugging and .322 OBP (.723 OPS).
Santo's avg was .277 / 25/ 96 with an OPS of .826.
I love the OPS stat. A 100 point difference is huge. Just because a guy is an awesome fielder, doesnt make up for that kind of production.
I am not a Santo hater. Fact: He has average big league stats and never helped his team win a championship. Hell, they never even won the pennant. His seasonal averages per 162 games played are 25 HR, 96 RBI, and a .277 average. .277??? The Hall of Fame is for the best of the best, not sympathy votes for a century-long losing franchise and it's players. There are other players with better stats AND championship rings who are not yet in the hall.
As for Dryden's comment of me being an idiot. I'm not the Cubs fan, you are.
Superood, explain Brooks Robinson.
I don't buy into the "so and so never led his team to a championship."
Individual ballplayers don't make decisions on who is on their team. That's up to the ownership. You can't say santo wasn't a great player because he didn't have a great team. It's not something he had control over.
Basically what you are saying is that if you transplant santo onto the Orioles' squad, he's a hall of famer.
To me, championships have nothing to do with the Hall of Fame. The only thing I can see where it matters is once that player gets into the post season, did they perfrom well? No doubt, that's where Brooks Robinson earned his stripes -- and deservedly so.
I don't think you'll find many players from Santo's era that averaged .277 / 25/ 96 / .826 during that time.
QuoteI don't think you'll find many players from Santo's era that averaged .277 / 25/ 96 / .826 during that time.
Especially at third base, as you have to compare them to people at the same position...
Quote from: Gantry on 06/29/05, 12:40:47 PM
QuoteI don't think you'll find many players from Santo's era that averaged .277 / 25/ 96 / .826 during that time.
Especially at third base, as you have to compare them to people at the same position...
Gantry, you realize that you will now be grouped in the "idiot" category?
Quote from: Superood on 06/29/05, 12:14:33 PM
There are other players with better stats AND championship rings who are not yet in the hall.
Name one.
Quote from: Ryno on 06/29/05, 12:46:58 PM
Quote from: Gantry on 06/29/05, 12:40:47 PM
QuoteI don't think you'll find many players from Santo's era that averaged .277 / 25/ 96 / .826 during that time.
Especially at third base, as you have to compare them to people at the same position...
Gantry, you realize that you will now be grouped in the "idiot" category?
How do you figure? He's agreeing with you...
Quote from: Gantry on 06/29/05, 12:40:47 PM
QuoteI don't think you'll find many players from Santo's era that averaged .277 / 25/ 96 / .826 during that time.
Especially at third base, as you have to compare them to people at the same position...
Not sure I agree that you should compare him to only 3rd baseman. There is no rule that says X% of HOFers have to be from Y position.
If all the 3rd baseman had shitty offensive stats compared to many outfielders and middle infielders, not sure it is fair to give the best 3rd baseman the nod.
I don't think Santo should be in the hall. However, I don't think half the 3rd baseman in the hall should be in either.
Quote from: Superood on 06/29/05, 12:14:33 PM
I His seasonal averages per 162 games played are 25 HR, 96 RBI, and a .277 average.
Those number are excellent for the era in which he played
Quote from: Dryden on 06/29/05, 12:50:19 PM
Quote from: Ryno on 06/29/05, 12:46:58 PM
Quote from: Gantry on 06/29/05, 12:40:47 PM
QuoteI don't think you'll find many players from Santo's era that averaged .277 / 25/ 96 / .826 during that time.
Especially at third base, as you have to compare them to people at the same position...
Gantry, you realize that you will now be grouped in the "idiot" category?
How do you figure? He's agreeing with you...
You're an idiot as well. . . . . Cub fan :)
I think we can all agree that Ron Santo was a better hitter than Brooks Robinson by any metric you care to use. But Robinson was the more valuable fielder, you say?
Not according to win shares.
Win shares gold gloves, 3B (through 2003):
Graig Nettles 7
Ron Santo 7
Mike Schmidt 6
Tim Wallach 6
Brooks Robinson 5
Gary Gaetti 5
Robin Ventura 4
Terry Pendleton 4
Clete Boyer 3
Darrell Evans 3
Doug Rader 3
Jeff Cirillo 3
Buddy Bell 2
Eric Chavez 2
Ken Boyer 2
Scott Rolen 2
Wade Boggs 2
http://www.baseballgraphs.com/blog/more.php?id=A15_0_1_0_M
Quote from: stockw19 on 06/29/05, 12:50:58 PM
Quote from: Gantry on 06/29/05, 12:40:47 PM
QuoteI don't think you'll find many players from Santo's era that averaged .277 / 25/ 96 / .826 during that time.
Especially at third base, as you have to compare them to people at the same position...
Not sure I agree that you should compare him to only 3rd baseman. There is no rule that says X% of HOFers have to be from Y position.
If all the 3rd baseman had shitty offensive stats compared to many outfielders and middle infielders, not sure it is fair to give the best 3rd baseman the nod.
I don't think Santo should be in the hall. However, I don't think half the 3rd baseman in the hall should be in either.
But if one position is grossly underrepresented in the hall of fame, isn't it more likely that we are mis-measuring the position, rather than that no good players play there? Defense is notoriously hard to rate. Everyone would agree that 3B defense is more critical than LF, RF or 1B. So if the average 3B (who hits better than the average SS, CF, 2B or C) doesn't hit as well as the guys in left, right and center, aren't we not measuring defense enough? Why not move the Don Mattingly's and Keith Hernandez's of the world to 3B? Because they can't throw...
So are you saying that Santo should be in the hall based on his deffense?
Quote from: Dryden on 06/29/05, 01:00:33 PM
Why not move the Don Mattingly's and Keith Hernandez's of the world to 3B? Because they can't throw...
I think maybe because they were left handed
Based on both his D and O, clearly. It isn't an all or nothing argument. He was a much, much better hitter than the Robinsons and Mazeroskis of the world. If you take a top notch defender and give him an OPS+ of 125 at a meaningful defensive position (not LF, RF or 1B), what else does he have to do?
Quote from: ultimate7 on 06/29/05, 01:03:02 PM
Quote from: Dryden on 06/29/05, 01:00:33 PM
Why not move the Don Mattingly's and Keith Hernandez's of the world to 3B? Because they can't throw...
I think maybe because they were left handed
There are plenty of righty 1B, though... The only thing you never see is a lefty catcher.
What?? I can't think of any left handed SS or 3B in modern times
Quote from: Dryden on 06/29/05, 01:04:21 PM
Based on both his D and O, clearly. It isn't an all or nothing argument. He was a much, much better hitter than the Robinsons and Mazeroskis of the world. If you take a top notch defender and give him an OPS+ of 125 at a meaningful defensive position (not LF, RF or 1B), what else does he have to do?
Hit more home runs, or (at least) bat close to .300.
Some people will just not understand the differences in baseball eras. You understand that Bob Gibson had a 1.12 ERA in 1968, right
And he lost 9 games!!!!!!
Quote from: ultimate7 on 06/29/05, 01:06:00 PM
What?? I can't think of any left handed SS or 3B in modern times
Fair enough. Instead of Mattingly and Hernandez, then, why not Bagwell? Why not Carew after he was done at 2B? Garvey?
whatever, von santos, on the brewers has like a 2.90 ERA and his record is 2-8, or something like it.
Quote from: ultimate7 on 06/29/05, 01:09:46 PM
Some people will just not understand the differences in baseball eras. You understand that Bob Gibson had a 1.12 ERA in 1968, right
And he lost 9 games!!!!!!
Roger Clemens has a 1.50 ERA in TODAY's era. And he is only 6-3. Plus, he has not even won half his games.
We'll see how Roger finished the season, if he has a 1.50 ERA for the entire season and doesn't miss a start, he'll go 20-5
Quote from: stockw19 on 06/29/05, 01:07:51 PM
Quote from: Dryden on 06/29/05, 01:04:21 PM
Based on both his D and O, clearly. It isn't an all or nothing argument. He was a much, much better hitter than the Robinsons and Mazeroskis of the world. If you take a top notch defender and give him an OPS+ of 125 at a meaningful defensive position (not LF, RF or 1B), what else does he have to do?
Hit more home runs, or (at least) bat close to .300.
Where does that leave Ozzie Smith, he of the .262 average and 28 HRs?
Yogi Berra: .285, 358 HR
Cal Ripken: .276, 431 HR
Brooks Robinson: .267, 268 HR
Tony Perez: .279, 379 HR at first base
Quote from: stockw19 on 06/29/05, 01:14:49 PM
Quote from: ultimate7 on 06/29/05, 01:09:46 PM
Some people will just not understand the differences in baseball eras. You understand that Bob Gibson had a 1.12 ERA in 1968, right
Roger Clemens has a 1.50 ERA in TODAY's era. And he is only 6-3. Plus, he has not even won half his games.
It isn't about what any one pitcher does - the league ERA last year in the NL was 4.30. In 1968? 2.98. That's a HUGE difference.
Quote from: Ryno on 06/29/05, 12:39:29 PM
Superood, explain Brooks Robinson.
I don't buy into the "so and so never led his team to a championship."
Individual ballplayers don't make decisions on who is on their team. That's up to the ownership. You can't say santo wasn't a great player because he didn't have a great team. It's not something he had control over.
Basically what you are saying is that if you transplant santo onto the Orioles' squad, he's a hall of famer.
To me, championships have nothing to do with the Hall of Fame. The only thing I can see where it matters is once that player gets into the post season, did they perfrom well? No doubt, that's where Brooks Robinson earned his stripes -- and deservedly so.
I don't think you'll find many players from Santo's era that averaged .277 / 25/ 96 / .826 during that time.
Santo-327 erros over 14 years. B. Robinson-264 errors over 22 years. Don't you think errors have something to do with your team winning? When's fuckin' Garvey going to get the call from the hall?
Quote from: Superood on 06/29/05, 01:42:20 PM
Quote from: Ryno on 06/29/05, 12:39:29 PM
Superood, explain Brooks Robinson.
I don't buy into the "so and so never led his team to a championship."
Individual ballplayers don't make decisions on who is on their team. That's up to the ownership. You can't say santo wasn't a great player because he didn't have a great team. It's not something he had control over.
Basically what you are saying is that if you transplant santo onto the Orioles' squad, he's a hall of famer.
To me, championships have nothing to do with the Hall of Fame. The only thing I can see where it matters is once that player gets into the post season, did they perfrom well? No doubt, that's where Brooks Robinson earned his stripes -- and deservedly so.
I don't think you'll find many players from Santo's era that averaged .277 / 25/ 96 / .826 during that time.
Santo-327 erros over 14 years. B. Robinson-264 errors over 22 years. Don't you think errors have something to do with your team winning? When's fuckin' Garvey going to get the call from the hall?
Please tell me you're kidding and you didn't just equate errors with fielding excellence.
Quote from: Dryden on 06/29/05, 01:18:01 PM
Quote from: stockw19 on 06/29/05, 01:07:51 PM
Quote from: Dryden on 06/29/05, 01:04:21 PM
Based on both his D and O, clearly. It isn't an all or nothing argument. He was a much, much better hitter than the Robinsons and Mazeroskis of the world. If you take a top notch defender and give him an OPS+ of 125 at a meaningful defensive position (not LF, RF or 1B), what else does he have to do?
Hit more home runs, or (at least) bat close to .300.
Where does that leave Ozzie Smith, he of the .262 average and 28 HRs?
Yogi Berra: .285, 358 HR
Cal Ripken: .276, 431 HR
Brooks Robinson: .267, 268 HR
Tony Perez: .279, 379 HR at first base
The Wizard of Oz is in the hall because....didn't someone hit an RBI walk off grand slam with him before? I read it on the site somewere...can't remember who it was. Who hit it???
Don't take my word for it, take Branch Rickey's:
"Fielding averages? Utterly worthless as a yardstick. They are not only misleading but deceiving. Take Zeke Bonura, the old White Sox first baseman, generally regarded as a poor fielder. The fielding averages showed that he led the American League in fielding for three years. Why? Zeke has "good hands"! Anything he reached, he held. Result: an absence of errors. But he was also slow moving and did not cover much territory. Balls that a quicker man may have fielded went for base hits, but the fielding averages do not reflect this."
-- Branch Rickey, quoted in LIFE magazine, August 2, 1954
Quote from: Superood on 06/29/05, 01:42:20 PM
[When's fuckin' Garvey going to get the call from the hall?
Gantry, sorry. This individual is either a troll or an idiot. I leave it up to others to determine which is the case.
A saying: The three worst things a person can be are: 1) a Nazi war criminal, 2) a child molester, and 3) Steve Garvey. This man is, as far as anyone knows, the only person who fits into all 3 categories.
http://digamma.net/btfwiki/index.php/Steve_Garvey
Ok. The Garvey thing was a joke. I like your page though...funny shit. Apparently, I'm not the only one who thinks your beloved Santo should not be in the Hall, or else he would already fuckin' be there. How about Kerry Wood? Is he living up to a HOF career? Wait until he wins 15 games a year...then you can "brag."
It isn't my page. Kerry has no shot at the HOF (barring a Spahn-esque resurgence) and his career is shaping up, not to be a major bust, exactly, but more like a pre-closing Dennis Eckersley: tons of promise, not a lot to show for it, with major durability issues. Of course, Eckersley was high the whole time. No idea what Kerry's excuse is.
The fact that a bunch of writers can't see how good Santo was doesn't make it right. These people put Rabbit Maranville in the Hall of Fame. They're a complete fucking disgrace.
Jack Morris' parents used to live by my mom & dad and one day they saw a homeless man pee on their porch.
Superood-
When you've been around a bit longer, you may realize I'm actually not a Cubs homer (that's Ryno). Santo actually happens to be the best non-pitcher not in the hall. There's actually a bunch of Cubs on that list, mostly because their accomplishments have been discounted over the years (Stan Hack and Billy Herman come to mind). Blyleven is clearly the best pitcher not in the hall.
As for current Cubs, none of them (except Maddux, obviously) deserve to be in the hall. Maybe one day, but not currently.
Leave Superoog alone. Troog's little brother deserves respect
Mark, great post. I loved yours more than any other today.
Will Maddux go into the hall as a Brave or a Cub? 3 of his 4 Cy's came with Atlanta, as well as most of his career wins and his only Championship. I think he'll go in as Brave and I think the Rocket will go in as a Yankee....even though Boston would be the obvious choice if he ever retires.
Quote from: Superood on 06/29/05, 02:33:01 PM
Will Maddux go into the hall as a Brave or a Cub? 3 of his 4 Cy's came with Atlanta, as well as most of his career wins and his only Championship. I think he'll go in as Brave and I think the Rocket will go in as a Yankee....even though Boston would be the obvious choice if he ever retires.
Maddux is clearly a Brave and Clemens clearly a Red Sox. There's no way he's a Yankee. He did more as a freaking Blue Jay than as a Yankee.
Quote from: Superood on 06/29/05, 02:33:01 PM
Will Maddux go into the hall as a Brave or a Cub? 3 of his 4 Cy's came with Atlanta, as well as most of his career wins and his only Championship. I think he'll go in as Brave and I think the Rocket will go in as a Yankee....even though Boston would be the obvious choice if he ever retires.
How do they decide this now? They used to let the players decide, until players (like Rickey) started putting clauses in their contract that they would go into the hall with that team.
I remember when Rickey once announced that he would go into the hall representing the last team he played a MLB game for.
I agree, BoSox for Clemens, but...I think I remember saying Clemens wishes to go in as a Yankee.
His wishes don't mean shit. They never let the players decide, exactly. The players wishes were taken into account. Then, when players started having shit written into their contracts about it (I believe Boggs' contract with Tampa specified something about this) the HOF said that they have the final decision in all cases. Gary Carter specifically asked not to be an Expo - they told him to go fuck himself, essentially.
Rickey's an A, whether he wants to be or not. On occasion, if there's really a huge issue (maybe for a player like Palmeiro or something) they might leave off the cap altogether.
Clearly this policy was not in effect when Ryan went in with a Rangers cap, though.
The HOF now decides the team. Maddux would have to pitch another 8 years with the Cubs for it even to be close.
The real question is: What team will Julio Franco go in as?
The Cleveland Spiders. He played for them, right?
Quote from: Dryden on 06/29/05, 02:40:32 PM
Clearly this policy was not in effect when Ryan went in with a Rangers cap, though.
Yes but they were afraid that Nolan would kick their asses if they didn't do what he wanted.
Quote from: Dryden on 06/29/05, 02:03:42 PM
Santo actually happens to be the best non-pitcher not in the hall.
i would think that would be pete rose.
Quote from: Teddyballgame on 06/29/05, 02:46:08 PM
Quote from: Dryden on 06/29/05, 02:03:42 PM
Santo actually happens to be the best non-pitcher not in the hall.
i would think that would be pete rose.
Another guy who will have to die to get into the hall. Well... either him or Selig.
Quote from: Teddyballgame on 06/29/05, 02:46:08 PM
Quote from: Dryden on 06/29/05, 02:03:42 PM
Santo actually happens to be the best non-pitcher not in the hall.
i would think that would be pete rose.
I was actually going to put "best eligible non-pitcher" but didn't think anyone would bring that one up. I think Joe Jackson is probably better than Rose, but it's close. They're both better than Santo, true enough.
For the record, Blyleven is the best "eligible" non-pitcher. Eddie Cicotte might be better than him as well.
i hate debating this stuff, but i think you have a well thought-out point of view, dryden. i also appreciate your historical knowledge. the discussion is interesting.
maybe the pitcher's unknown totals #'s 1,2 are factored into their hall of fame eligibility.
Rickey may go in as an Athletic, but he will always be a Surf Dawg in my heart...
And Dryden, I guess you would you rank Santo ahead of Jim Rice?
Quote from: Dryden on 06/29/05, 02:51:37 PM
Quote from: Teddyballgame on 06/29/05, 02:46:08 PM
Quote from: Dryden on 06/29/05, 02:03:42 PM
Santo actually happens to be the best non-pitcher not in the hall.
i would think that would be pete rose.
I was actually going to put "best eligible non-pitcher" but didn't think anyone would bring that one up. I think Joe Jackson is probably better than Rose, but it's close. They're both better than Santo, true enough.
Clearly it's Barry Bonds, if you include non-eligibles
I love that we have at least two threads discussing Ron Fucking Santo and the Hall of Fame at one time.
If ron Santo ran up to me and kicked me in the balls, I still wouldn't know who he was.
Quote from: BDawk on 06/29/05, 03:02:15 PM
If ron Santo ran up to me and kicked me in the balls, I still wouldn't know who he was.
that may be the single reason why boston has the best baseball fans in the world.
Quote from: BDawk on 06/29/05, 03:02:15 PM
If ron Santo ran up to me and kicked me in the balls, I still wouldn't know who he was.
I think it would help his HOF qualifications, though
Quote from: Gerlost on 06/29/05, 02:57:32 PM
Rickey may go in as an Athletic, but he will always be a Surf Dawg in my heart...
And Dryden, I guess you would you rank Santo ahead of Jim Rice?
By a lot. There are a bunch of guys better than Rice - Alan Trammell, Bob Johnson, Andre Dawson...
Rice was very, very good, but his fielding was complete shit and he grounded into so many double plays, you have to count them against him. It really hurts his overall value quite a bit.
Quote from: Teddyballgame on 06/29/05, 03:03:37 PM
Quote from: BDawk on 06/29/05, 03:02:15 PM
If ron Santo ran up to me and kicked me in the balls, I still wouldn't know who he was.
that may be the single reason why boston has the best baseball fans in the world.
HEY! Don't lump me in with them.
I'm from Philly.
Quote from: BDawk on 06/29/05, 03:10:08 PM
Quote from: Teddyballgame on 06/29/05, 03:03:37 PM
Quote from: BDawk on 06/29/05, 03:02:15 PM
If ron Santo ran up to me and kicked me in the balls, I still wouldn't know who he was.
that may be the single reason why boston has the best baseball fans in the world.
HEY! Don't lump me in with them.
I'm from Philly.
I think it's pretty well established that Phily has some of the worst baseball fans in the world. Of course, if I had to watch the Athletics, followed by the Phillies for the vast majority of their history, I'd be pretty pissed off, too. I liked Peter Gammons' comment, though: "Whomever designed that park in Philadelphia was an idiot. The home-road run numbers are the same as Coors Field."
Quote from: BDawk on 06/29/05, 03:10:08 PM
Quote from: Teddyballgame on 06/29/05, 03:03:37 PM
Quote from: BDawk on 06/29/05, 03:02:15 PM
If ron Santo ran up to me and kicked me in the balls, I still wouldn't know who he was.
that may be the single reason why boston has the best baseball fans in the world.
HEY! Don't lump me in with them.
I'm from Philly.
were you aware that he has no legs?
If Ron Santo has no legs, then I take back my statement about him not being in the hall. I challenge anyone to play as well as he did with no legs.
Seriously, if he has no legs--I'd really like to see him try to kick me in the balls. I'd beat his ass.
Quote from: BDawk on 06/29/05, 03:20:01 PM
If Ron Santo has no legs, then I take back my statement about him not being in the hall. I challenge anyone to play as well as he did with no legs.
Seriously, if he has no legs--I'd really like to see him try to kick me in the balls. I'd beat his ass.
He seriously has no legs. He played his entire career with diabetes.
Quote from: Dryden on 06/29/05, 03:12:45 PM
I think it's pretty well established that Phily has some of the worst baseball fans in the world. Of course, if I had to watch the Athletics, followed by the Phillies for the vast majority of their history, I'd be pretty pissed off, too. I liked Peter Gammons' comment, though: "Whomever designed that park in Philadelphia was an idiot. The home-road run numbers are the same as Coors Field."
We are bitter. We're sick of losing and would rather stab our hitters than cheer.
Don't take the field away. It's a nice park and that's about th only reason to go to the games lately.
Well, at least we've won the Series more recently than the Cubs.
The phrase "decades of mediocrity" could be applied to the Phillies and Athletics (since the 30s, anyway), except that other than the one series they won, it's mostly "decades of complete and utter shit".
I encourage all baseball fans to watch 'This Old Cub" on July 16 on WGN. It is a truely touching story that details Santo's career and bout with Diabetes. Hall of Fame or not, it's a great story of how he overcame substantial odds to have a great career and how he copes - dailey- with the affliction of diabets and not having legs.
Quote from: BDawk on 06/29/05, 03:22:57 PM
Well, at least we've won the Series more recently than the Cubs.
BOW: Burn of the Week
Quote from: Teddyballgame on 06/29/05, 03:26:55 PM
Quote from: BDawk on 06/29/05, 03:22:57 PM
Well, at least we've won the Series more recently than the Cubs.
BOW: Burn of the Week
Why? Isn't that the standard comeback to a Cubs fan, no matter what the discussion is about?
Quote from: Gerlost on 06/29/05, 02:57:32 PM
Rickey may go in as an Athletic, but he will always be a Surf Dawg in my heart...
I'd like to see Rickey go in wearing a hat with a picture of himself on it.