Jack Morris

[Dryden]

Superood, explain Brooks Robinson.

I don't buy into the "so and so never led his team to a championship."

Individual ballplayers don't make decisions on who is on their team.  That's up to the ownership.  You can't say santo wasn't a great player because he didn't have a great team.  It's not something he had control over.

Basically what you are saying is that if you transplant santo onto the Orioles' squad, he's a hall of famer. 

To me, championships have nothing to do with the Hall of Fame.  The only thing I can see where it matters is once that player gets into the post season, did they perfrom well?   No doubt, that's where Brooks Robinson earned his stripes -- and deservedly so.

I don't think you'll find many players from Santo's era that averaged .277 / 25/ 96 / .826 during that time. 

Santo-327 erros over 14 years. B. Robinson-264 errors over 22 years. Don't you think errors have something to do with your team winning? When's fuckin' Garvey going to get the call from the hall?

Please tell me you're kidding and you didn't just equate errors with fielding excellence.

[Superood]

Based on both his D and O, clearly.  It isn't an all or nothing argument.  He was a much, much better hitter than the Robinsons and Mazeroskis of the world.  If you take a top notch defender and give him an OPS+ of 125 at a meaningful defensive position (not LF, RF or 1B), what else does he have to do?

Hit more home runs, or (at least) bat close to .300.

Where does that leave Ozzie Smith, he of the .262 average and 28 HRs?
Yogi Berra: .285, 358 HR
Cal Ripken: .276, 431 HR
Brooks Robinson: .267, 268 HR
Tony Perez: .279, 379 HR at first base

The Wizard of Oz is in the hall because....didn't someone hit an RBI walk off grand slam with him before?  I read it on the site somewere...can't remember who it was.  Who hit it???

[Dryden]

Don't take my word for it, take Branch Rickey's:

"Fielding averages? Utterly worthless as a yardstick. They are not only misleading but deceiving. Take Zeke Bonura, the old White Sox first baseman, generally regarded as a poor fielder. The fielding averages showed that he led the American League in fielding for three years. Why? Zeke has "good hands"! Anything he reached, he held. Result: an absence of errors. But he was also slow moving and did not cover much territory. Balls that a quicker man may have fielded went for base hits, but the fielding averages do not reflect this."

-- Branch Rickey, quoted in LIFE magazine, August 2, 1954

[Dryden]

[When's fuckin' Garvey going to get the call from the hall?

Gantry, sorry.  This individual is either a troll or an idiot.  I leave it up to others to determine which is the case.

A saying: The three worst things a person can be are: 1) a Nazi war criminal, 2) a child molester, and 3) Steve Garvey. This man is, as far as anyone knows, the only person who fits into all 3 categories.

http://digamma.net/btfwiki/index.php/Steve_Garvey

[Superood]

Ok.  The Garvey thing was a joke.  I like your page though...funny shit.  Apparently, I'm not the only one who thinks your beloved Santo should not be in the Hall, or else he would already fuckin' be there.  How about Kerry Wood?  Is he living up to a HOF career?  Wait until he wins 15 games a year...then you can "brag."   

[Dryden]

It isn't my page.  Kerry has no shot at the HOF (barring a Spahn-esque resurgence) and his career is shaping up, not to be a major bust, exactly, but more like a pre-closing Dennis Eckersley: tons of promise, not a lot to show for it, with major durability issues.  Of course, Eckersley was high the whole time.  No idea what Kerry's excuse is.

The fact that a bunch of writers can't see how good Santo was doesn't make it right.  These people put Rabbit Maranville in the Hall of Fame.  They're a complete fucking disgrace.

[Mark]

Jack Morris' parents used to live by my mom & dad and one day they saw a homeless man pee on their porch.

[Dryden]

Superood-

When you've been around a bit longer, you may realize I'm actually not a Cubs homer (that's Ryno).  Santo actually happens to be the best non-pitcher not in the hall.  There's actually a bunch of Cubs on that list, mostly because their accomplishments have been discounted over the years (Stan Hack and Billy Herman come to mind).  Blyleven is clearly the best pitcher not in the hall.

As for current Cubs, none of them (except Maddux, obviously) deserve to be in the hall.  Maybe one day, but not currently.

[BDawk]

Leave Superoog alone. Troog's little brother deserves respect

[Superood]

Mark, great post.  I loved yours more than any other today.

[Superood]

Will Maddux go into the hall as a Brave or a Cub?  3 of his 4 Cy's came with Atlanta, as well as most of his career wins and his only Championship.  I think he'll go in as Brave and I think the Rocket will go in as a Yankee....even though Boston would be the obvious choice if he ever retires.

[Dryden]

Will Maddux go into the hall as a Brave or a Cub? 3 of his 4 Cy's came with Atlanta, as well as most of his career wins and his only Championship. I think he'll go in as Brave and I think the Rocket will go in as a Yankee....even though Boston would be the obvious choice if he ever retires.

Maddux is clearly a Brave and Clemens clearly a Red Sox.  There's no way he's a Yankee.  He did more as a freaking Blue Jay than as a Yankee.

[Stock]

Will Maddux go into the hall as a Brave or a Cub?  3 of his 4 Cy's came with Atlanta, as well as most of his career wins and his only Championship.  I think he'll go in as Brave and I think the Rocket will go in as a Yankee....even though Boston would be the obvious choice if he ever retires.

How do they decide this now?  They used to let the players decide, until players (like Rickey) started putting clauses in their contract that they would go into the hall with that team.
I remember when Rickey once announced that he would go into the hall representing the last team he played a MLB game for.

[Superood]

I agree, BoSox for Clemens, but...I think I remember saying Clemens wishes to go in as a Yankee.  

[Dryden]

His wishes don't mean shit.  They never let the players decide, exactly.  The players wishes were taken into account.  Then, when players started having shit written into their contracts about it (I believe Boggs' contract with Tampa specified something about this) the HOF said that they have the final decision in all cases.  Gary Carter specifically asked not to be an Expo - they told him to go fuck himself, essentially.

Rickey's an A, whether he wants to be or not.  On occasion, if there's really a huge issue (maybe for a player like Palmeiro or something) they might leave off the cap altogether.

Clearly this policy was not in effect when Ryan went in with a Rangers cap, though.

[ultimate7]

The HOF now decides the team.  Maddux would have to pitch another 8 years with the Cubs for it even to be close.

The real question is:  What team will Julio Franco go in as?

[Dryden]

The Cleveland Spiders.  He played for them, right?

[ultimate7]

Clearly this policy was not in effect when Ryan went in with a Rangers cap, though.

Yes but they were afraid that Nolan would kick their asses if they didn't do what he wanted.

[TβG]

Santo actually happens to be the best non-pitcher not in the hall. 

i would think that would be pete rose.

[Stock]

Santo actually happens to be the best non-pitcher not in the hall. 

i would think that would be pete rose.

Another guy who will have to die to get into the hall.  Well... either him or Selig.