Jack Morris

[Dryden]

I don't think you'll find many players from Santo's era that averaged .277 / 25/ 96 / .826 during that time.

Especially at third base, as you have to compare them to people at the same position...

Gantry, you realize that you will now be grouped in the "idiot" category?

How do you figure?  He's agreeing with you...

[Stock]

I don't think you'll find many players from Santo's era that averaged .277 / 25/ 96 / .826 during that time. 

Especially at third base, as you have to compare them to people at the same position...

Not sure I agree that you should compare him to only 3rd baseman.  There is no rule that says X% of HOFers have to be from Y position.
If all the 3rd baseman had shitty offensive stats compared to many outfielders and middle infielders, not sure it is fair to give the best 3rd baseman the nod.

I don't think Santo should be in the hall.  However, I don't think half the 3rd baseman in the hall should be in either.

[ultimate7]

I His seasonal averages per 162 games played are 25 HR, 96 RBI, and a .277 average.

Those number are excellent for the era in which he played

[RedBarron]

I don't think you'll find many players from Santo's era that averaged .277 / 25/ 96 / .826 during that time.

Especially at third base, as you have to compare them to people at the same position...

Gantry, you realize that you will now be grouped in the "idiot" category?

How do you figure? He's agreeing with you...

You're an idiot as well. . . . . Cub fan

[Dryden]

I think we can all agree that Ron Santo was a better hitter than Brooks Robinson by any metric you care to use.  But Robinson was the more valuable fielder, you say?

Not according to win shares.

Win shares gold gloves, 3B (through 2003):

Graig Nettles   7
Ron Santo   7
Mike Schmidt   6
Tim Wallach   6
Brooks Robinson   5
Gary Gaetti   5
Robin Ventura   4
Terry Pendleton   4
Clete Boyer   3
Darrell Evans   3
Doug Rader   3
Jeff Cirillo   3
Buddy Bell   2
Eric Chavez   2
Ken Boyer   2
Scott Rolen   2
Wade Boggs   2

http://www.baseballgraphs.com/blog/more.php?id=A15_0_1_0_M

[Dryden]

I don't think you'll find many players from Santo's era that averaged .277 / 25/ 96 / .826 during that time. 

Especially at third base, as you have to compare them to people at the same position...

Not sure I agree that you should compare him to only 3rd baseman.  There is no rule that says X% of HOFers have to be from Y position.
If all the 3rd baseman had shitty offensive stats compared to many outfielders and middle infielders, not sure it is fair to give the best 3rd baseman the nod.

I don't think Santo should be in the hall.  However, I don't think half the 3rd baseman in the hall should be in either.

But if one position is grossly underrepresented in the hall of fame, isn't it more likely that we are mis-measuring the position, rather than that no good players play there?  Defense is notoriously hard to rate.  Everyone would agree that 3B defense is more critical than LF, RF or 1B.  So if the average 3B (who hits better than the average SS, CF, 2B or C) doesn't hit as well as the guys in left, right and center, aren't we not measuring defense enough?  Why not move the Don Mattingly's and Keith Hernandez's of the world to 3B?  Because they can't throw...

[Stock]

So are you saying that Santo should be in the hall based on his deffense?

[ultimate7]

Why not move the Don Mattingly's and Keith Hernandez's of the world to 3B? Because they can't throw...

I think maybe because they were left handed

[Dryden]

Based on both his D and O, clearly.  It isn't an all or nothing argument.  He was a much, much better hitter than the Robinsons and Mazeroskis of the world.  If you take a top notch defender and give him an OPS+ of 125 at a meaningful defensive position (not LF, RF or 1B), what else does he have to do?

[Dryden]

Why not move the Don Mattingly's and Keith Hernandez's of the world to 3B? Because they can't throw...

I think maybe because they were left handed

There are plenty of righty 1B, though...  The only thing you never see is a lefty catcher.

[ultimate7]

What?? I can't think of any left handed SS or 3B in modern times

[Stock]

Based on both his D and O, clearly.  It isn't an all or nothing argument.  He was a much, much better hitter than the Robinsons and Mazeroskis of the world.  If you take a top notch defender and give him an OPS+ of 125 at a meaningful defensive position (not LF, RF or 1B), what else does he have to do?

Hit more home runs, or (at least) bat close to .300.

[ultimate7]

Some people will just not understand the differences in baseball eras.  You understand that Bob Gibson had a 1.12 ERA in 1968, right
















And he lost 9 games!!!!!!

[Dryden]

What?? I can't think of any left handed SS or 3B in modern times

Fair enough.  Instead of Mattingly and Hernandez, then, why not Bagwell?  Why not Carew after he was done at 2B? Garvey?

[T Roogs]

whatever, von santos, on the brewers has like a 2.90 ERA and his record is 2-8, or something like it.

[Stock]

Some people will just not understand the differences in baseball eras.  You understand that Bob Gibson had a 1.12 ERA in 1968, right
















And he lost 9 games!!!!!!

Roger Clemens has a 1.50 ERA in TODAY's era.  And he is only 6-3.  Plus, he has not even won half his games.

[ultimate7]

We'll see how Roger finished the season, if he has a 1.50 ERA for the entire season and doesn't miss a start, he'll go 20-5

[Dryden]

Based on both his D and O, clearly.  It isn't an all or nothing argument.  He was a much, much better hitter than the Robinsons and Mazeroskis of the world.  If you take a top notch defender and give him an OPS+ of 125 at a meaningful defensive position (not LF, RF or 1B), what else does he have to do?

Hit more home runs, or (at least) bat close to .300.

Where does that leave Ozzie Smith, he of the .262 average and 28 HRs?
Yogi Berra: .285, 358 HR
Cal Ripken: .276, 431 HR
Brooks Robinson: .267, 268 HR
Tony Perez: .279, 379 HR at first base

[Dryden]

Some people will just not understand the differences in baseball eras.  You understand that Bob Gibson had a 1.12 ERA in 1968, right

Roger Clemens has a 1.50 ERA in TODAY's era.  And he is only 6-3.  Plus, he has not even won half his games.

It isn't about what any one pitcher does - the league ERA last year in the NL was 4.30.  In 1968?  2.98.  That's a HUGE difference.

[Superood]

Superood, explain Brooks Robinson.

I don't buy into the "so and so never led his team to a championship."

Individual ballplayers don't make decisions on who is on their team.  That's up to the ownership.  You can't say santo wasn't a great player because he didn't have a great team.  It's not something he had control over.

Basically what you are saying is that if you transplant santo onto the Orioles' squad, he's a hall of famer. 

To me, championships have nothing to do with the Hall of Fame.  The only thing I can see where it matters is once that player gets into the post season, did they perfrom well?   No doubt, that's where Brooks Robinson earned his stripes -- and deservedly so.

I don't think you'll find many players from Santo's era that averaged .277 / 25/ 96 / .826 during that time. 

Santo-327 erros over 14 years.  B. Robinson-264 errors over 22 years.  Don't you think errors have something to do with your team winning?  When's fuckin' Garvey going to get the call from the hall?