Jack Morris

[ultimate7]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-0506280177jun28,1,2586670.story


Talking about the HOF and Blyleven, scroll past the first part about Jordan...

[Gantry]

Blyleven should definitely be in the hall, to me it's a no-brainer.  Morris I'm not sure on...

[RedBarron]

They should both be in.

I'm considered a liberal HOF'er though.

[RedBarron]

the BR stats are very cool --- and as far as I an tell are pretty accurate.

There are a lot of HOF guys that don't come close to qualifying with the BR ratings.

[Gantry]

They are just ahead of HOF'er and one of my buddy Nick's favorite pitchers from the old era Chief Bender...

[Superood]

Blyleven and Morris should be in.  Ron Santo....not a chance. 

[Dryden]

Blyleven and Morris should be in. Ron Santo....not a chance.

You're an idiot.  Ron Santo is pretty clearly one of the 10 best third basemen in history, and is easily the single greatest oversight of the HOF to date.  Blyleven is so overqualified, it isn't even funny.

Jack Morris?  Other than his oft-quoted "winningest pitcher of the 80s" crap, what exactly did he do well?  One 10 inning game with the blue jays does not a HOF'er make.

And while I've always liked Chief Bender, he doesn't belong in the HOF, either.  The HOF monitor numbers were always designed to reflect certain perceived voter standards at the time bill james set them up.  Of course, standards change quite a bit over time, and it's clear from general consensus in the last few years that a number of statistics which are not included in the HOF monitor are getting a lot more attention.

[Gantry]

Good info Dryden on the HOF monitor, but lay off the "idiot" remarks.  You New Yorkers are always so salty...

I never really knew much about Bender, my buddy Nick and I used to draft all-time players and have a season on Tony Larussa's baseball on the PC.  Great times, we drafted players and got to use their best seasons.  I made a killing off my big two old-timers, Ed Walsh and Addie Joss... 

[ultimate7]

Santo is a no brainer, I'm guessing superod is just making that statement tongue in cheeck as a cub hater, happy that Ron Santo isn't in the Hall, not really basing on accomplishments.

[Dryden]

Good info Dryden on the HOF monitor, but lay off the "idiot" remarks. You New Yorkers are always so salty...

I never really knew much about Bender, my buddy Nick and I used to draft all-time players and have a season on Tony Larussa's baseball on the PC. Great times, we drafted players and got to use their best seasons. I made a killing off my big two old-timers, Ed Walsh and Addie Joss...

Yeah, you know how it is - we give people shit because we care.  Bender's actually a very interesting story - one of the 2 best native american ballplayers along with "Indian" Bob Johnson, who probably does belong in the HOF, except that he played on some of the all-time worst Philadelphia Athletics teams ever. 

[Dryden]

Let's look at the HOF third basemen, shall we?

Mike Schmidt - Clearly the best, and it's not that close (at least, once you combine fielding and hitting)

George Brett - About Schmidt's equal with the bat, but no real fielding ability.  Nice long career, though.

Eddie Mathews - A truly great young player, but washed up young.  No fielding ability here, either.

Frank Baker - Eddie Mathews for the deadball era.  A truly great player, hell of a defender, too.  Actually, probably better than Mathews.

Wade Boggs - He hit real good.

Jimmy Collins - Revolutionized the way third basemen play, possibly the greatest fielding third baseman ever (compared to his era, anyway).  Hit better than, say, Brooks Robinson, too.

Brooks Robinson - Couldn't really hit, but a great fielder.  More legend than reality.

Pie Traynor - Really nowhere near as good as history suggests.  Hit like Robinson, but without as much with the glove.  Why so many think he is the greatest is totally mindboggling.

George Kell - What is he doing in the hall of fame?  It's a mystery.  He has no qualifications whatso-freaking-ever.

Freddie Lindstrom - He was buddies with Frankie Frisch.  No, really, that's all he's got.

So, in that context, let's look at Ron Santo:  He fielded better than anyone except Schmidt, Collins and Robinson, and hit better than anyone except Schmidt, Brett, Mathews, Baker and Boggs.  What do those 5 men, as batters, have over Santo?  They played in much higher offensive contexts.  To keep him out of the HOF is an ongoing travesty.

[RedBarron]

I can't explain Kell.  Both he and Robinson are from Arkansas.


Santo's lack of membership is perplexing to me.  What did the guy have to do to get in?

He won GGs -- not as many as Legendary Brooks Robinson -- but still more than most.  He hit a shit ton better than Robinson.   He was the dominant thirdbaseman of this time.  He's a no brainer.

Nevermind the fact that he played with serious Diabetes his entire career.

[ultimate7]

What doe the guy have to do to get in?

Die, really he will get in after he dies, why the don't let him in now, it just seems like they want to torture the guy.

[RedBarron]

I find it odd that 3B is considered a "power" or "offense" position, yet the hall of fame doesn't have that many guys in it that played 3B. 

BR has Santo at 40.9 on the HOF Standards, 88 on the HOF Monitor.

They have Brooks (his AL Counterpart) at 34 and 128.

I'm confused by Brooks high HOF Monitor rating.  He was that great of a hitter -- he just played a really long time.   His avg season was .267/15/76   with a .401 slugging and .322 OBP (.723 OPS).

Santo's avg was .277 / 25/ 96 with an OPS of .826.   

I love the OPS stat.  A 100 point difference is huge.  Just because a guy is an awesome fielder, doesnt make up for that kind of production.

[Superood]

I am not a Santo hater.  Fact: He has average big league stats and never helped his team win a championship.  Hell, they never even won the pennant.  His seasonal averages per 162 games played are 25 HR, 96 RBI, and a .277 average.  .277???  The Hall of Fame is for the best of the best, not sympathy votes for a century-long losing franchise and it's players.  There are other players with better stats AND championship rings who are not yet in the hall.  

[Superood]

As for Dryden's comment of me being an idiot.  I'm not the Cubs fan, you are.

[RedBarron]

Superood, explain Brooks Robinson.

I don't buy into the "so and so never led his team to a championship."

Individual ballplayers don't make decisions on who is on their team.  That's up to the ownership.  You can't say santo wasn't a great player because he didn't have a great team.  It's not something he had control over.

Basically what you are saying is that if you transplant santo onto the Orioles' squad, he's a hall of famer. 

To me, championships have nothing to do with the Hall of Fame.  The only thing I can see where it matters is once that player gets into the post season, did they perfrom well?   No doubt, that's where Brooks Robinson earned his stripes -- and deservedly so.

I don't think you'll find many players from Santo's era that averaged .277 / 25/ 96 / .826 during that time. 

[Gantry]

I don't think you'll find many players from Santo's era that averaged .277 / 25/ 96 / .826 during that time. 

Especially at third base, as you have to compare them to people at the same position...

[RedBarron]

I don't think you'll find many players from Santo's era that averaged .277 / 25/ 96 / .826 during that time.

Especially at third base, as you have to compare them to people at the same position...

Gantry, you realize that you will now be grouped in the "idiot" category?

[Dryden]

There are other players with better stats AND championship rings who are not yet in the hall. 

Name one.