In an effort to avoid as much work as possible today, I started throwing together some "all-time" teams for the teams in FS '90. (BTW, if someone wants to add in the Tigers, Reds, Indians and Pirates and take out the Angels, Astros, Padres and Rangers, I'd be eternally grateful...)
Anyway, the lineups are attached, comments welcome.
A few points before you start shooting at me:
1. A player is only listed once, on the team where he had the most value. If a player is not listed on a given team for whatever reason (Tris Speaker should be an Indian, but they're not a team), he is "available" to his next most valuable team if he is the best player at that position. The only value that a player has is that which he accumulated playing for that team.
2. The NL and AL teams are made up of all players not listed on any of the other teams. The only value that a player has is that which he accumulated playing in that league.
3. Positions are that where a player had the most games played, or the most value created (Ernie Banks at SS, for example) for the team in question. If a player more or less split time, it's whichever position is more useful to the team. All outfield spots are not created equal.
This is a work in progress, especially for some of the sketchier teams/players. All input is welcome.
If Doug Dascenzo and Augie Ojeda are not included on the Cubs I'll consider your ROM comepletely u.seless. . . . . . and ghay
Quote from: Ryno on 07/13/05, 05:15:58 PM
If Doug Dascenzo and Augie Ojeda are not included on the Cubs I'll consider your ROM comepletely u.seless. . . . . . and ghay
Dascenzo is the "blowout relief pitcher" and Augie is the "late-inning defensive replacement". These are not well-documented elements of the FS '90 lineup system, but they are there.
1 Willie Wilson-of
2 Amos Otis-of
3George Brett-3b
4 Mike Sweeney-1b
5 Bo Jackson-of
6 Frank White-2b
7Darrell Porter-c
8Freddie Patek-ss
B: Hal McRae
B :Danny Tartabull
B:John Mayberry
B:Kevin Seitzer
SP: Dennis Leonard
SP: Bret Saberhagen
SP: Larry Gura
SP: Paul Splittorff
RP: Dan Quisenberry
RP: Jeff Montgomery
I know they are not on there, but....
I hope those blanks mean you're looking for players to add.
Additions:
- Bernie Williams to the Yankees
- Chili Davis & Gary DiSarcina to the Angels
- Bob Stanley to the BoSox
- Jason Giambi to the A's
- Mickey Vernon, Joe Judge, and Al Worthington to the Twins
- Oddibe McDowell, Rusty Greer, Ruben Sierra, Buddy Bell, and Darold Knowles to the Rangers
- Wally Berger to the Braves
- Al Hrabosky to the Cardinals
That's all I've got for now.
i know augie ojeda personally ( i went to college with him) and i would be disappointed if he were left off the rom.
Quote from: Bonny on 07/13/05, 06:04:04 PM
1 Willie Wilson-of
2 Amos Otis-of
3George Brett-3b
4 Mike Sweeney-1b
5 Bo Jackson-of
6 Frank White-2b
7Darrell Porter-c
8Freddie Patek-ss
B: Hal McRae
B :Danny Tartabull
B:John Mayberry
B:Kevin Seitzer
SP: Dennis Leonard
SP: Bret Saberhagen
SP: Larry Gura
SP: Paul Splittorff
RP: Dan Quisenberry
RP: Jeff Montgomery
I know they are not on there, but....
I'd probably go with Aikens, Balboni or Beltran over McRae, but other than that, I agree.
Quote from: Teddyballgame on 07/13/05, 07:10:36 PM
i know augie ojeda personally ( i went to college with him) and i would be disappointed if he were left off the rom.
Tennessee?
I liked Augie. He's still in twin's system. 100% pure hustle player.
Detroit Tigers
C - Lance Parrish
1B - Hank Greenberg
2B - Charlie Gehringer
3B - George Kell
SS - Alan Trammell
LF - Willie Horton
CF - Ty Cobb
RF - Harry Heilman
Bench - Al Kaline
Bench - Norm Cash
Bench - Lou Whitaker
Bench - Sam Crawford
SP - Hal Newhouser
SP - Jack Morris
SP - George Mullin
SP - Tommy Bridges
RP - John Hiller
CL - Aurielo Lopez
Wahoo and Kaline on the bench?
Horton over Veach? Seriously?
Are we looking for the best all-time players on this list or the best single-season players? I ask becaues the latter would make them a stronger RBI player.
For example - while George Kell was clearly the better player and HOFer, one of Travis Fryman's 20+ homer seasons would make him more valuable in the video game sense for Detroit...
Thoughts? Lemon Parties? Yes or no?
rusty kuntz should be on the tiger squad
I'd say The Walking Man Eddie Yosts' 1959 season may be the best by a Detroit third-sacker (.278, 21 HR, 135 BB), but his walks won't really help him on RBI ... Fryman's .303 with 20 homers in '93 is probably the best RBI season.
Bobby Veach should be on there somewhere, probably as the LFer (his numbers won't look great compared to players today ... .310, .370 OBP, .442 SLG ... but his career OPS+ was 127, meaning he was 27% better than the league average -- Horton retired at 120)
Bill Freehan could push Parrish at catcher, especially if it's single season ... He was near the top of the MVP voting in 67/68.
Kaline is better than Heilman (unless it's single season...then Heilman's .400 in 23 is gonna take it)
I'd like to see it done with the greatest individual single seasons.
But no love for the Rangers??
Greer .332 18
Franco .341 18
ARdrgz .300 57
Palmro .324 47
JGnzlz .310 46
IRdrgz .332 35
Sierra .306 29
BBell .329 17
... that ain't such a bad lineup. Fergie Jenkins / Nolan Ryan / Charlie Hough / Kevin Brown / Kenny Rogers / John Wetteland / Jeff Russell / Francisco Cordero on the bump ...
That is a most impressive lineup for the Rangers...
CUBS (Greatest Seasons) -- RBI'ers get the starting nod
C: Gabby Hartnett (1930: .339 / 37 / 122)
1B: Derrek Lee (2005 est stats: .350 / 45 / 125)(Cubs have never been blessed with 1b)
2b: Ryne Sandberg (1990: .306 / 40 / 100)
3B: Aramis Ramirez (2004: .318 / 36 / 103)
SS: Ernie Banks (1958: .313 / 47 / 129)
OF: Sammy Sosa (2001: .328 / 64 / 160)
OF: Hack Wilson (1930: .356 / 56 / 191)
OF: Andre Dawson (1987: .287 / 49 / 137)
Bn: Billiy Williams (1970: .322 / 42 / 129)
Bn: Ron Santo (1964: .312 / 30 / 114)
Bn: Rogers Hornsby (1929: .380 / 39 / 149)
Bn: Dave Kingman (1978: .288 / 48 / 115)
SP: Sutcliffe (1984: 16-1, 2.69)
SP: Fergie Jenkins (1971 24-13, 2.77)
SP: Greg Maddux (1992: 20-11, 2.18)
SP: Mark Prio (2003: 18-6, 2.43)
RP: Randy Myers (1993: 56 saves)
CP: Lee Smith (ML All Time Saves Leader)
Frank Chance circa 1905/1905 could bump D-Lee if 2005 doesn't count ... .450 OBP in '05. (his 2 homers aren't exactly eye-popping but he was 7th in the league in SLG). But what would the All-Cubbie team be without Mark Grace? .326, 16 HR in 1995.
Agreed, Lee can't make the list on fairytale stats. Give Gracie a go, he's got a glove to boot...
Appier or Cone could be candidates for the Royals staff ... Balboni - a personal favorite after years of watching him blast homers for the Oklahoma City 89ers - was built to be an RBI'er. Big time power with zero defense. It's a shame his mustache can't be adaquatly represented in the game. He would be much better suited for an RBI bench spot than McRae (.243 36 HR in '85 for Bye-Bye Balboni).
Quote from: sfbennett1 on 07/14/05, 03:41:24 AM
Frank Chance circa 1905/1905 could bump D-Lee if 2005 doesn't count ... .450 OBP in '05. (his 2 homers aren't exactly eye-popping but he was 7th in the league in SLG). But what would the All-Cubbie team be without Mark Grace? .326, 16 HR in 1995.
I didn't go with any dead ball era guys or Cap Anson would have gotten the nod at 1B. Grace had a decent 1989 with .314 / 17hr but the Cubs never had a RBI-type 1st baseman. I think Lee's 32 homers last season were the most by a Cub first baseman.
I think you have to balance single season with career, to try to get a list of the legitimate "best" players for a given franchise.
Clearly, Ozzie Smith is the best shortstop the Cardinals ever had. Anyone would say this. The fact that he didn't hit very well is unfortunate, but to use a season that Edgar Renteria (or anyone else) had is kind of intellectually dishonest.
However, the fact that Don Lock seems to have the "best" "career" for the Rangers in CF doesn't say much - if someone put up a season that was worth a crap, you'd probably want to go with them.
Ryno's right about Anson - he's so much better than any other Cubs 1B, it's not even close. But since Dawson and Sosa both played RF, that doesn't really work. Fortunately, Billy Williams played LF. And if Sandberg's best season was better than Hornsby's... well, it just wasn't.
I'd assume you were already using Hornsby for STL
Yeah, but I don't think that was Ryno's point.
Quote from: Ryno on 07/13/05, 08:02:33 PM
Quote from: Teddyballgame on 07/13/05, 07:10:36 PM
i know augie ojeda personally ( i went to college with him) and i would be disappointed if he were left off the rom.
Tennessee?
I liked Augie. He's still in twin's system. 100% pure hustle player.
cypress community college
Quote from: Athletics RosterSP Lefty Grove
SP Eddie Plank
SP Chief Bender
SP Catfish Hunter/Vida Blue
RP Dennis Eckersley
RP Rollie Fingers
The A's have the best pitchers' names.
For the Twins, you could put Bob Allison in one of those bench slots - he's generally regarded as one of the best outfielders in Twins history, not including Senators (the Twins generally don't acknowledge their pre-Minnesota history much, although they did do a Big Train bobblehead night a couple years ago).
In the relief slot, Al Worthington was solid for five years or so in the late 60's. Other than Aguilera, the Twins don't have much for relievers that were great for more than a couple years (Nathan, Guardado, Reardon, etc.).
Updated (maybe final?) lineups attached. Any and all comments welcome - thanks for the comments so far.
Quote from: Dryden on 07/14/05, 10:13:27 AM
Yeah, but I don't think that was Ryno's point.
My point was to go with RBI'ers where possible.
I also tried to go with guys in the starting lineup that you wouldn't normally sub in. Say I put Anson or Chance at 1b. Sure they have a high average, but RBI is about Power, so those guys would never get to play and you'd kill a bench spot.
Is there room for Todd Hundly as a back up catcher?
you may consider putting Zoilo Versalles as the Twins SS. He was the AL MVP during their 1965 World Series run.
also, your Cubs are too old school. . . . .. they won games :D
Not trying to be an asshole, but i wonder if having more recognizable players make help the overall playability of the ROM. Sure guys like me and you will know who the Cap Ansons and Tris Speakers of the world are, but alot of guys might not.
Then again, you aren't looking to mass produce this bad boy either.
So, carry on. . . pay me no attention.
Quote from: Ryno on 07/14/05, 12:34:38 PM
I have no fucking clue who Cap Anson or Tris Speaker is.
So, carry on. . . pay me no attention.
Quote from: fightonusc on 07/14/05, 01:59:49 PM
Quote from: Ryno on 07/14/05, 12:34:38 PM
I have no fucking clue who Cap Anson or Tris Speaker is.
So, carry on. . . pay me no attention.
If you were Mr. OJ I would suggest you go fuck yourself.
But since you're cool and whatnot, I'll suggest you go have joyous buttsex with fknmcclane
For the record, if you don't know who Cap Anson and Tris Speaker are, you're not a real baseball fan. These are 2 of the best 25 or so players of all-time.
Quote from: Dryden on 07/14/05, 02:13:08 PM
For the record, if you don't know who Cap Anson and Tris Speaker are, you're not a real baseball fan. These are 2 of the best 25 or so players of all-time.
I'd be willing to bet many fans don't know them.
Am I wrong or were many Speaker's hits actually walks? Seems like I recall them counting walks as hits at one time.
You also realize that by calling these guys 2 of the best 25 or so, you open up the "you're an idiot because you can't compare eras" sort of argument.
Have I mentioned that I want to have sex with your aviator?
None of Speaker's hits were walks. There was a period of time where this was done, but a lot of effort has been made in the last 5 years or so to go through all of the box scores from these earlier periods and recompile the information, using current methods of accounting for stats (this is how Hack Wilson got his 191st RBI in 1930, why Nap Lajoie's BA in 1901 is now .426 instead of .422, etc.) - if the hits were walks, you wouldn't see him credited with any walks at all, since they'd all be under hits...
Of course you can compare eras. How you do it can be discussed, but to say it can't be done is silly. Besides, you have to define what an era is, anyway. One player's career might span multiple "eras". Does that mean we can't look at his total accomplishments, we can only look at one season at a time?
To be fair, Anson is probably more like top 50, Speaker top 10-12. I averaged a bit...
i would rather see Konerko or even Carlos Lee on the pale hose instead of Magglio...magglio ditched us and then tried to make the sox look like the bad guys.
Runs Created for White Sox
Magglio Ordonez 727
Carlos Lee 549
Paul Konerko 543
The problem is, Magglio is a lot better than those 2...
White Sox = Ron Kittle
Quote from: Dryden on 07/14/05, 02:35:20 PM
Runs Created for White Sox
Magglio Ordonez 727
Carlos Lee 549
Paul Konerko 543
The problem is, Magglio is a lot better than those 2...
and he's a damn sellout. he's not a true member of the white sox. or like EDF said, Ron Kittle.
Quote from: Strassy on 07/14/05, 02:58:39 PM
Quote from: Dryden on 07/14/05, 02:35:20 PM
Runs Created for White Sox
Magglio Ordonez 727
Carlos Lee 549
Paul Konerko 543
The problem is, Magglio is a lot better than those 2...
and he's a damn sellout. he's not a true member of the white sox. or like EDF said, Ron Kittle.
Okay, choose from Happy Felsch, Johnny Mostil and Ivan Calderon, then.
Quote from: Dryden on 07/14/05, 03:16:07 PM
Okay, choose from Happy Felsch, Johnny Mostil and Ivan Calderon, then.
If you can make Calderon do that nifty little snap/catch thing that he used to do, then definitely go with him!
"and he's a damn sellout."
He's right -- It's VERY un-White Sock to sell out ...... Oh hey, don't forget to put Joe Jackson and Eddie Cicotte on the team.
PS -- You just got 'MaggliOwn3d' ... haha just kiddin
Quote from: sfbennett1 on 07/14/05, 04:32:54 PM
"and he's a damn sellout."
He's right -- It's VERY un-White Sock to sell out ...... Oh hey, don't forget to put Joe Jackson and Eddie Cicotte on the team.
PS -- You just got 'MaggliOwn3d' ... haha just kiddin
Well done. Savage post.
Why exactly is Ray Durham on the White Sox bench? I think 2 of the 4 bench spots for light hitting second basemen is a bit overkill. If you have to include another light hitting middle infielder, you always have HOF Luis Aparicio over Durham.
Man, I'm trying my best to find a replacement for Durham/Aparicio - for a franchise that's been around as long as the Sox have, they have a BUTT AWFUL history of worthwhile outfielders. Stupid Dryden always being right...
I would say Kittle for the name recognition, but he only played 4.5 years with the Sox. Dick Allen even less. Greg Luzinski not too long either. Jim Landis maybe? Bill Melton?
How can a franchise that's been around for so long have so few notable batters? Simply pathetic...
Hal McRae is WAY better than Balboni.
Haha yeah, I didn't mean Balboni was better than McRae ... but as an RBI PLAYER, coming off the bench, would you rather have .332 8 HR, or .243 36 HR? Personally I'd take Balboni on my bench (obviously not in real baseball).
Quote from: sfbennett1 on 07/14/05, 04:32:54 PM
"and he's a damn sellout."
He's right -- It's VERY un-White Sock to sell out ...... Oh hey, don't forget to put Joe Jackson and Eddie Cicotte on the team.
PS -- You just got 'MaggliOwn3d' ... haha just kiddin
if you knew the sox history, or even watched Eight Men Out, you would know that Cicotte was being hamstrung by Comiskey.
Shoeless Joe most likely wasn't even involved with throwing the series.
I don't do that gay internet slang "owned" BS - but you just got shown up.
Haha I was just jokin around man - I can't have ONE White Sox selling out joke?? But -- I don't think you can say that he "most likely wasn't involved" ...
< -- anyone looking for the regular topic skip this part -- >
He admitted to agreeing to fix the series, he knew the other guys were fixing the series ... He hit .375 overall, but in the first five games of the series he came to the plate 7 times with men on base, a total of 10 men in scoring position, and collected 1 hit, 0 RBI ... He later admitted to playing poorly in the field to allow the Reds to score more runs; 3-4 of these plays are well documented. He did pick it up in games 6/7 (the 2 games that all of the Black Sox were trying to win), and from all that I've read he was probably the LEAST guilty of the fixers, but he was most definitely involved. Cicotte was getting jobed by the owner but he STILL threw the World Series -- big no no.
< -- back to your regularly scheduled topic -- >
Can players be on more than one team? Albert Belle is on the AL team but in '98 with the Sox he hit .328 with 49 homers. That should edge Durham off the bench.
Oh yeah btw -- Shoeless JOwn3d
...again, kidding
one white sox sell out joke it one too many...same joke, 86 years...i think it stopped being funny somewhere around 75 years ago. i'll give you partial credit because none of us were alive
Quote from: Strassy on 07/15/05, 10:16:59 AM
one white sox sell out joke it one too many...same joke, 86 years...i think it stopped being funny somewhere around 75 years ago. i'll give you partial credit because none of us were alive
sounds alot like being a cub fan. . . .
Quote from: Gantry on 07/14/05, 06:45:39 PM
Why exactly is Ray Durham on the White Sox bench? I think 2 of the 4 bench spots for light hitting second basemen is a bit overkill. If you have to include another light hitting middle infielder, you always have HOF Luis Aparicio over Durham.
Man, I'm trying my best to find a replacement for Durham/Aparicio - for a franchise that's been around as long as the Sox have, they have a BUTT AWFUL history of worthwhile outfielders. Stupid Dryden always being right...
I would say Kittle for the name recognition, but he only played 4.5 years with the Sox. Dick Allen even less. Greg Luzinski not too long either. Jim Landis maybe? Bill Melton?
How can a franchise that's been around for so long have so few notable batters? Simply pathetic...
And you see my problem. Durham is actually one of the best players in team history, and played a lot of games for the Sox (top 10 all time, if I recall). There isn't anyone else with meaningful service time who doesn't suck. Aparicio, though a worthy HOFer, couldn't hit worth shit. Check out his OPS+ by season - it's kind of sad, really.
Quote from: sfbennett1 on 07/15/05, 04:04:45 AM
Haha I was just jokin around man - I can't have ONE White Sox selling out joke?? But -- I don't think you can say that he "most likely wasn't involved" ...
< -- anyone looking for the regular topic skip this part -- >
He admitted to agreeing to fix the series, he knew the other guys were fixing the series ... He hit .375 overall, but in the first five games of the series he came to the plate 7 times with men on base, a total of 10 men in scoring position, and collected 1 hit, 0 RBI ... He later admitted to playing poorly in the field to allow the Reds to score more runs; 3-4 of these plays are well documented. He did pick it up in games 6/7 (the 2 games that all of the Black Sox were trying to win), and from all that I've read he was probably the LEAST guilty of the fixers, but he was most definitely involved. Cicotte was getting jobed by the owner but he STILL threw the World Series -- big no no.
< -- back to your regularly scheduled topic -- >
Can players be on more than one team? Albert Belle is on the AL team but in '98 with the Sox he hit .328 with 49 homers. That should edge Durham off the bench.
Oh yeah btw -- Shoeless JOwn3d
...again, kidding
Thanks, but there's no need to warn us or even apologize for getting off topic. It's a regular occurance here