RBIers Not In Cooperstown

[dvldog]

OK, a few points here:

1)  Judge by their PLAYING careers, not MANAGERIAL careers

2)  HOFers and Likely HOFers don't count

3)  Focus on Debatables, but some might disagree with the last category

4)  It's not the RBI Hall of Fame (though that is an interesting concept) - it's that one in Cooperstown

5)  These lists are pretty rough - not much research went into them; Just tryin' to make eat easier to vote

HOFers:
Reggie Jackson, Don Sutton, Nolan Ryan, Kirby Puckett, Gary Carter, Ozzie Smith, George Brett, Mike Schmidt, Tony Gwynn

Likely HOFers:
Wade "Devil Ray" Boggs, Roger Clemens, Alan Trammel, Lou Whitaker, Cal Ripken, Jr., Mark McGwire, Paul Molitor, Ryne Sandberg

Debatable:
Rice, Mattingly, and Canseco
Dwight Evans
Tim "Ellis" Burks
Kirk Gibson
Jack Morris
Frank Viola
Burt Blyleven
Jeff Reardon
Will Clark
Benito Santiago
Andre Dawson
Andres Gallaraga
Dale Murphy

Kind of A Stretch - Just My Opinion
Willie McGee
Jack Clark
Tony Pena
John Franco
Rick Sutcliffe
Fernando Valenzuela
Eric Davis
Harold Baines
Julio Franco
Jimmy Key
Bret Saberhagen
Dave Righetti
Don Baylor
Dave Henderson
Tony Armas
Wally Joyner
Bob Boone
Darrell Evans
Doyle Alexander
Jose Cruz
Glenn Davis
Davey Lopes
Mike Scott
Gary Gaetti
Lenny Dykstra
Keith Hernandez
Darryl Strawberry
Howard Johnson
Doc Gooden
Jesse Orosco
Kevin Mitchell
Vince Coleman
Willie Randolph
George Bell
Tim Raines

You Must Be On Crack:
Barrett, Buckner, Gedman, Owen, Sullivan, Hurst, Schiraldi, Stanley, Pettis, DeCinces, Downing, Grich, Schofield, Burelson, Hendrick, Wilfong, Jones, Witt, Corbett, Moore, Nokes, Herndon, Lemon, Brookens, Sheridan, Heath, Madlock, Bergman, Hernandez, King, Walling, Bass, Doran, Reynolds, Ashby, Garner, Thon, Puhl, Kerfeld, Smith, Gladden, Hrbek, Brunansky, Gagne, Launder, Lombardozzi, Smalley, Davidson, Bush, Larkin, Berenguer, Wilson, Backman, Knight, Santana, Heep, Teufel, Mazzili, Ojeda, McDowell, Uribe, Leonard, Maldonado, Brenly, Davis, Thompson, Spilman, Speier, Aldrete, Youngblood, Krukow, Reuschel, Garrelts, Robinson, Herr, Clark, Ford, Oquendo, Morris, Lindeman, Lake, Tudor, Cox, Dayley, Worrell, Schroder, Seitzer, Henke, Pedrique, Guerrero, Kruk, Bedrosian

[GDavis]

I vote all of them.  Including Al Pedrique and Tim Burks who doesn't exist.

[BeefMaster]

You left off my first choice (and favorite player of all time): Ryne Sandberg.  I think he'll make it eventually, though; there are a few writers who refuse to vote for anyone on the first ballot, and I think maybe he needs a couple more years for his mediocre unretirement to fade from memory.

[fknmclane]

Beefer, Ryno's on the list of likely HOFers.  I think you're right.  The writers like to make guys sweat for no reason.  I never understood how a guy is a HOFer in 2010 but not in 2005.  Doesn't make any sense.  It's not like he hit 100 more homers or something.  His shitty retirement to take care of his ho-bag wife will definitely hurt him.

DevilDog, I can't believe you went through and named every RBIer.  You took some serious time on this post.  I say Mattingly and Rice both belong.  Jose does not.  I think you got most everything else right.

[BeefMaster]

Sorry - I just read the poll before posting and forgot to read the list.  You did put in a heckuva lot of work on this post; wow.

I say no to Mattingly and Canseco and maybe to Rice.  Rice's stats are decent, but I'm too young to remember much of his career.

[doveRBI]

Impressive work on this post.  Dedication is applauded.  I, being an RBI true, believe that a special hall of fame that actually exceeds cooperstown in prestige should be created and that the sole basis for acceptance would be having been an rbi'er.  Being, however, that I want to point out one player in particular I will direct my commentary towards Jim Rice.  My comment being one that I have made before that he supposedly maintains the largest collection of VHS and DVD pornography of any known sports star.  Impressive.

[fknmclane]

Dove, thanks for the reminder about Jim Rice's porno collection.  That kills me every time.  I wonder if he even approaches the king of porno collectors, Marvin Gaye.

[doveRBI]

speaking of posts and f'ing mclane... has anyone ever reached 300 posts faster.... very impressive.

[MarquisEXB]

No to Mattingly. No to Rice. No to Canseco. Neither of them were good enough for long enough at their position.

Yes to Sandberg.

And a Yes to Burt Blyleven! Why? 287-250, and he really played on some bad teams. 10 times in his career he was in the top 10 in ERA. Only 5 times in his 22 years was his ERA+ below average, and he averaged 245IP a year! His career ERA is more than a half a run better than the league average. 15 times he was in the top 10 in strike outs. He was also durable. 12 times he was in the top 10 in complete games.

So is he HOF worthy? He's 13th overall in IP, and the first 12 are in the HOF. He's 9th overall in career shutouts. The first 8 pitchers in career shutouts are in the HOF, and so are the next 13! He's 5th overall in strikeouts with the top 13 all HOF pitchers (incl. Clemens & Randy Johnson). Out of the 4 HOF tests, he passes 3 (Gray Ink, HOF Standards & HOF Monitor). Out of his top 10 most similar 8 are in the Hall & the other two are borderline HOFers (Kaat & John).

He was not been the best pitcher out there, but his career numbers are incredible. A HOF for sure.

Mike

[doveRBI]

I concur... don't forget his stache... that is HOF test ##5.... stache worthiness

[sucka free]

No to Mattingly. No to Rice. No to Canseco. Neither of them were good enough for long enough at their position.

Yes to Sandberg.

And a Yes to Burt Blyleven!

Very very well said.  Props on the Blyleven call...not too many people are aware of the shaft that he has been getting lately.  Its a fucking crime that someone like Puckett gets a first ballot selection yet blyleven has yet to get in.

FOr the record, I think puckett is the most undeserving first ballot hall of famer ever.

[RockRaines4life]

First of all, good call with Blyleven, he definitely deserves to be in.
Second, I'm not saying that Rock deserves to be in the Hall, but he definitely should merit a little more consideration.  Look at him compared to the other Hall or near-Hall Tengen outfielders:

Gwynn- .847 OPS, 15 All-Star games
Puckett- .837 OPS, 10 All-star games
Rice- .854 OPS, 8 All-star games
Murphy - .815 OPS, 7 All-star games
Dawson- .806 OPS, 8 All-Star games
Canseco- .867 OPS, 6 All-Star games
DwEvans- .840 OPS, 3 All-star games
Burks- .875 OPS, 2 All-star games
Gibson- .815 OPS, 0 All-star games

Raines- .810 OPS, 7 All-star games.

The fact that Rock was a lead-off hitter who has an OPS close to all of these mostly middle of the order power men is impressive.  I know he never won an MVP or a gold glove and didn't hit nearly as many HRs as some of these guys but he did steal over 800 bases.  Probably if Rickey Henderson hadn't been his contemporary he would be thought of as the premier leadoff hitter of his era.  So although he probably should never go to Cooperstown he should least get the consideration that Murphy, Canseco, or Dawson do.

Plus he played with cocaine is his pockets, which has to give him some extra style-points.

                         

[MarquisEXB]

First of all, good call with Blyleven, he definitely deserves to be in.
Second, I'm not saying that Rock deserves to be in the Hall, but he definitely should merit a little more consideration.              

You have a good point with Raines. I dug up this discussion from a while back. The conclusion seems to be a toss. Raines could go either way. Some interesting comments:

Posted 7:49 p.m., August 18, 2002 (#15) - Eric Enders
...
One thing Bill James mentioned is that while Raines is the second-greatest leadoff hitter in baseball history, he had the misfortune to be an exact contemporary of both the best leadoff hitter (Henderson) and the third-best leadoff hitter (Paul Molitor).

--posted by Rich Rifkin at 6:13 PM EDT
If Rock Raines misses out by a large margin his first time around, it's possible that the Rickey Henderson factor will play a role. ... Unfortunately for Raines, he's likely to be measured against Rickey, not against Brock.

Posted 10:45 p.m., August 19, 2002 (#29) - Voros McCracken (e-mail)
 I decided just to look at this a little more. I think an argument can be made that Tim Raines was the best player in the National League from 1984-1986 (at least on the position player side of things).

Posted 2:31 p.m., August 20, 2002 (#32) - Tom N
Raines may not have been the very best in terms of power, but he compensated for that by stealing bases at a high percentage. It's easy to overlook because often today's high stolen base totals are coupled with somewhat low percentages, but stealing 70 bases with a SBPct around 85 adds around 20 total bases(after one considers the break even point for SB is 67%). In a typical Tim Raines' season his stolen bases would add 20 or 30 points to his slugging percentage.


Posted 2:34 a.m., August 22, 2002 (#33) - eric
 For no reason other than my low opinion for the intelligence of many of the voters, I don't think Rock is getting in the HOF for a very, very long time, if ever.

Mike

[fknmclane]

Dale Murphy was a top 5 player for five or so years in the 80's.  He does get screwed because nothing really jumps out.  I'm still not really sold on him getting in.

The Rock is definitely one of the more underrated players. He was an absolute force on the field.  Playing at the same time as Rickey will all but kill his chances of being an HOFer.  Quite a shame.  Maybe his son can get in

Blyleven should absolutely get in.  No question.  Isn't he number 5 on the all time K list?  That in itself merits discussion.  I think a lot of people look at his win/loss record which is just a joke.  Nolan Ryan and even Cy Young aren't all that far over .500.  Most pitchers aren't.  Funny story about Bert.  My parents bought me and my bros a baseball blooper video when we were kids and Blyleven was all over the thing.  Once getting a pie in the face but another time, more importantly, just about knuckle deep digging for a boog.  Every time I hear his name I get that picture in my head.

[RedRamage]

Focusing on the Tigers for a moment:

I would downgrade Whitaker from likely to Debatable...not that is matters as Whitaker didn't get enough votes his first year and is off the list.

I would upgrade Morris from Debatable to Likely.  I think he was one of the most dominating pitchers in the 80s.  The biggest knock on his numbers are his lack of total wins.  But one needs to remember that when he made it to the Majors baseball was changing from a 4 man rotation to a 5 man rotation.  

Gibson: I've love to see him in the Hall, but he just doesn't have the total numbers.  Injuries and bouncing from team to team didn't let him really settle down enough in my opinion.  He was good, maybe even great if you include some of his great moments.  But he wasn't Special... not HOF special.

Trammell: All I have to say is this: If Trammell could do a back flip he'd be in the HOF.  Trammell has slightly lower defensive abilities than Ozzie, but had much higher offensive numbers.  There's no way, in my opinion, that Tram shouldn't be in the HOF is Smith is.

[RedRamage]

A word about voting: I think it's so STUPID that some of the voters will not vote for a player in his first year of eligiblity.  Somehow there evolved this idea that in order to vote for a person in his first year that person needs to be extra special.  If he's just really special, well, I vote for him next year, but not this one.  Dumb!!

Furthermore, what makes it worse is the fact that if a player doesn't get a minimum number of votes on any year, he's toast--dropped off the list for future consideration.

So let's say we've got a player who's HOF calibre, but not "first ballot" HOF calibre.  So no one votes for him.  He get dropped from the list and has no shot at the the Hall.  Disgraceful.  This is essentially what happened to Lou Whitaker.  Now, it's questionable whether he was really HOF calibre, but I think there's enough of a question that he should've gotten enough votes to remain on the ballot.  However, the far majority of votes got it in their heads that Sweet Lou wasn't "first ballot" HOF material, and so didn't vote for him.  The result?  Lou got too few votes to remain on the ballot.

Afterwards, a number of the voters were questioned about Whitaker.  Many made comments like: "I'm suprised he didn't get enough to remain on.  I didn't vote for him because he didn't deserve a first round vote, but he should've gotten more consideration in future years."  STUPID!!

Okay, well, the reality is that we've got these people with their ideas that only the best of the best of the best deserve to be considered on the first ballot.  It's not likely that they will ever be convienced that this is dumb and that they should change the process.  I think I have a reasonable solution however.  Why not make this simple amendment to the rules so that we can avoid losing possible HOF candidates because they don't qualify as "first rounders"...  Here's the rule:

Any player, in his first year of eligibility, who receives at least ONE vote, shall not be removed from future consideration.

This rule only applies to the first year.  After that, normal rules apply.  It also still requires at least one vote, so your avearge or horrible players would never get even the one vote to remain on the list for a second year.  But all the 'debatable' players would likely get at least one vote and remain on the list long enough to get "second round" consideration at least.

[RockRaines4life]

MarquisEXB-
Many props to the Baseball Primer discussion.  That site and Baseball Prospectus (before it went premium) completely changed the way I think about baseball.  Also I met Eric Enders this summer when I worked at the Hall of Fame Research Library and he was in doing research- very cool guy and knows a lot about baseball.

[BeefMaster]

I disagree on Morris.  He's like the pitching version of Gibson - he had some great moments, but I don't know that he should make it.  He was a horse, and at times a great pitcher, but he wasn't ever considered the best pitcher in the game, or even in the top 5 or so.  The whole "most wins during the 80's" thing is overrated, too - Mark Grace had the most hits of anyone during the 90's, and even though he was one of my favorite players, I don't think he'll make the Hall.

Then again, on the list of most similar pitchers at Baseball-Reference, 7 of the 10 are in the Hall, and Tom Glavine will probably make it 8.  The most similar, though, is Dennis Martinez, who probably won't get in, and while Bob Gibson is second, I think that's more on the basis of career averages than individual seasons - Morris was never as dominant as Gibson.

I'm with you on Trammel, and while I don't think Whitaker should make it, I'm surprised he didn't last more than a year on the ballot.

[fknmclane]

I'm only gonna say this once:  Kirk Gibson has no right to be in the Hall of Fame.  He was never really that good and never should have one that fuckin' MVP anyway.

Morris is borderline but I doubt will make it.  His cold shoulder to the world definitely won't help anything.

Lou Whitaker doesn't belong either.  Good player for a very long time, but I'm not so sure he's really Hall material.  Definitely a true borderline guy.

You're right about Trammell.  He was one of the first shortstops who could really do it all.  He played incredible defense but also scared some pitchers.  It'll be a shame if he gets overlooked.  I'm still not sure how Ozzie Smith got in.  Since when did we start awarding players for being able to do ONE  thing?  I guess Lenny Harris will get in because he's the greatest pinch-hitter of all time.

Maybe I'm a little harsh on Ozzie.  But if they're gonna be dicks about paying dues and not getting in right away, he got in too quick.  The guy wasn't a great hitter.

I mentioned this before about voting and it's really just a simple, logical question.  How can a guy get in 25 years after retirement but not before that?  I can understand if there are more deserving guys on the ballot and whatever, but these players are retired for Christ's sake.  It's not like they're playing a couple more years and the voters have more to look at.  Either a guy is a Hall of Famer or he isn't.  The voters are idiots who don't know as much about baseball as everyone thinks.

[MarquisEXB]

MarquisEXB-
Many props to the Baseball Primer discussion.  That site and Baseball Prospectus (before it went premium) completely changed the way I think about baseball.  Also I met Eric Enders this summer when I worked at the Hall of Fame Research Library and he was in doing research- very cool guy and knows a lot about baseball.

Same here. Actually it was Neyer a few years ago that led me on the right path. I read a lot of Bill James at that time & it really set me straight. As for Primer & Prospectus, you can learn so much from them. Too bad Prospectus went paid. Don't forget some of the great blogs out there. I think Aaron Gleeman will be one of the best of the next generation of writers. He can write forever on a topic, and it's entertaining & intelligent.

Mike