Clemens Best Ever?

[MarquisEXB]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/neyer_rob/1558124.html

An interesting take on Rocket's greatness.

[vgp100]

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/simmons/030527.html

I prefer this article. This guy pretty much sums up the feelings about Clemens in the Boston area. It would be nice if his arm fell off and he'd be stuck on 299.

[MarquisEXB]

A follow-up no-no for Nolan.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/neyer_rob/1559625.html

[vgp100]

So I guess Brett Saberhagen is a much better pitcher than Nolan.
The real question is: How do you decide who is great?
Is it awards? Statistics? Longevity? 20K games? No hitters?
For every argument you give, I can give two counter-arguments.
The main reason I like Nolan is he's done something I've never seen (maybe never will) He was so dominant for so many years. I guess you can say Clemens is dominant now, but I don't see his dominance as I did with Ryan.

[MarquisEXB]

So I guess Brett Saberhagen is a much better pitcher than Nolan.
The real question is: How do you decide who is great?
Is it awards? Statistics? Longevity? 20K games? No hitters?
For every argument you give, I can give two counter-arguments.
The main reason I like Nolan is he's done something I've never seen (maybe never will) He was so dominant for so many years. I guess you can say Clemens is dominant now, but I don't see his dominance as I did with Ryan.

Personally I like to look at two things: the player's best few seasons, and their overall career. Clemens beats Nolan (among others) in both of these categories. He had 6 Cy Young seasons to Ryan's zero, so Clemens' peak is higher (over a full season). Also Clemens' career number will be better than Ryan's in the most important category, ERA (or ERA+).

That's what a pitcher is suppose to do, prevent runs, not strike out batters. Ryan was unparralleled in respect to striking out hitters. However he was only above average in the most important category, preventing runs. That's why Clemens, IMHO, was better. He was better in respect to what he was suppose to do, not a secondary stat that helps to accomplish that goal.

Ryan wasn't dominant for so many seasons. Ryan was dominant for many games. A very many games. In a seasonal context Ryan for the most part was good, never great or dominant.

Mike

[BeefMaster]

I'm going to take some semblance of the middle ground here.  While there's no denying that Ryan's longevity was impressive, he never attained the level of dominance that Clemens did for such a long period of time.  If you'll recall, despite the couple of no-nos he had with the Rangers at the end of his career, Ryan was at best a number two or three starter his last four or five years, and he had a lot of mediocre years in the 80's as well.  Clemens was average for maybe two years in the mid-90's, and that's it.  His dominance hasn't let up, even as he's gotten older.

On the other hand, I think Clemens is a total jerk, and I root against him every time he pitches.  It's absolutely killing me to be arguing in favor of him, but I'm one of those heartless types who thrives on the facts.

[vgp100]

Well, I'm looking at the numbers right now and their career ERA's are pretty similar. Clemens-3.15  Nolan 3.19. Clemens is better there--but not drastically different. Nolan only had two years with an ERA over 4: his first and last seasons.
Complete games: Roger 116   Nolan 222   Roger had only two with the Yankees.

I'm not going to tell you that Nolan is so much better than Clemens. All I'm saying is it's not black and white who's the better pitcher. And this Rob Neyer asshole is saying that Nolan is a pretty good pitcher is just trying to make a name for himself. Not taking anything away from Roger's career, but the things that Nolan Ryan did were amazing and makes him one of the elite of all time.

[GDavis]

Old man Clemens hates Sh*t!

[MarquisEXB]

Sure Nolan had a 3.19 career ERA, but the league average ERA for the parks he played in is 3.57. Clemens 3.15 ERA is much more impressive when the league average ERA for the parks he played in is 4.49.

So each had the same ERA, but during Clemens' time teams scored one more run per game. That gives Roger an overwhelming edge.

Mike

http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/clemero02.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/ryanno01.shtml

[vgp100]

I'm not buying that. Three runs a game is three runs a game no matter when you do it. Besides, about a third of Nolan's career was at the same time Roger pitched.

[ericdavisfan]

I've done some research on the Clemens had better seasons argument.  Let's compare Clemens' 6 best seasons (where he won his 6 Cy Young Awards, since that makes him better, right?) against Nolan Ryan's 6 best statistical seasons.  I did wins, losses, k's, complete games, shut-outs, and era in that order.

Clemens

1986 (24-4, 238, 10, 1, 2.48)
1987 (20-9, 256, 18, 7, 2.97)
1991 (18-10, 241, 13, 4, 2.62)
1997 (21-7, 292, 9, 3, 2.05)
1998 (20-6, 271, 5, 3, 2.65)
2001 (20-3, 213, 0, 0, 3.51)


Ryan

1972 (19-16, 329, 20, 9, 2.28)
1973 (21-16, 383, 26. 4, 2.87)
1974 (22-16, 367, 26, 3, 2.89)
1976 (17-18, 327, 22, 7, 3.36)
1977 (19-16, 341, 14,4, 2.77)
1989 (16-10, 301, 6, 2, 3.20)

The reason Ryan had so many more losses is because he went the distance basically twice as much as Clemens.  Plus, look at the era.  If Ryan didn't pitch a shutout or close to it, he wasn't gonna win with the Angels.  I was questioning myself before seeing these numbers, but now I say Ryan is so much more dominant than Clemens!  Not even a debate to me.  Look at how many of those categories for Ryan are actually better than Clemens.  The only flaw is the losses

[MarquisEXB]

I'm not buying that. Three runs a game is three runs a game no matter when you do it. Besides, about a third of Nolan's career was at the same time Roger pitched.

Sure and a $1.00 in 1972 is still a dollar today.  

[MarquisEXB]

When comparing ERA, rememeber in 1972 the AL league batting average was .239! In 1986 it was a respectable .262. In 1972 the team with the most home runs was 134. In 1986, every AL team but 2 hit more (most was 196). In '72, The team with the most runs scored 4.13 a game, in '86 again only 2 teams scored less.

You can't compare straight across eras, because the game was not the same. In the '70s the game was heavily weighed towards the pitchers. If your team gave up four runs a game in 1972 would have the worst pitching staff in the league. If your team gave up four runs a game in 1986, you would have the best pitching.

Clemens ERA may not look impressive next to some of the pitchers of the '70s, but when you remember those 6 years he led the league in ERA, and Ryan never did, it becomes apparent who is better.

Mike

[MarquisEXB]

Clemens

1986 (24-4, 238, 10, 1, 2.48)

Ryan

1972 (19-16, 329, 20, 9, 2.28)

The reason Ryan had so many more losses is because he went the distance basically twice as much as Clemens.  

That's just not true. In '72 Ryan lost 16 times, because 9 times he failed to even reach the 6th inning. That is 23% of his starts. Clemens failed to reach the 6th only 3 times or  9%. In fact Ryan failled to make it to the 4th inning 6 times, where Clemens only did it once. Why was he taken out after 1.2 inning? Because it was October and the Red Sox scored 4 runs in the bottom of the first, and they wanted to rest him for the playoffs.

So take away that game, and Clemens reached the 4th inning in 100% of his starts, and the 6th in 94% of his starts. Ryan is 85% and 77%. Remember the offensive advantage the 1986 AL has over the 1972 AL, and then ask yourself, who had a better year?

If you had one game to choose a pitcher for one game, would you take someone who has a 1/4 shot of getting knocked out before the 6th against .239 hitters? I wouldn't.

Mike

[ericdavisfan]

Marquis,

while I respect what you've said and acknowledge that you've done some impressive research, I also note that you are comparing Clemens' pinnicle season (no debate on this necessary) to what was probably Ryan's 3rd or 4th best season.  In order to compare a Clemens season to a Ryan season, it would have to be determined which season is most comparable to the other.  86 and 72 aren't the comparable seasons here.  I'm saying that across the board, a typical Ryan top 6 season is far more impressive than a typical Clemens Cy Young Award season.  I think that this is a great debate and I think that both pitchers are absolutely amongst the greatest of all-time.  It's just my opinion that Ryan was the more dominant of two VERY dominant pitchers.

One topic that I'm surprised that nobody has brought up is Nolan Ryan's great curve ball that complimented his fireball.  Clemens has a variety of fastballs, but Ryan earned extra strikeouts because he could flame a 100 mph fastball past someone, or buckle someone's knees with that swooping curveball.

[MarquisEXB]

Marquis,

while I respect what you've said and acknowledge that you've done some impressive research, I also note that you are comparing Clemens' pinnicle season (no debate on this necessary) to what was probably Ryan's 3rd or 4th best season.  

1986 can be anywhere from Clemens' 3rd to 5th best season. It's certainly not his best. His best is probably either 1990 (21-6 1.96!) or 1997 (21-7 2.05!). I would say that his 1998 season (20-6 2.65) is better, and his 1992 (18-11 2.41) might have just been as good.

Quite honestly I don't see how 1972 is Ryan's 3rd best season. It's his lowest non-strike ERA, by more than a half point! But even if it's Ryan's 3rd best season, it also Clemens. So the comparison is fair.

Ryan pitched in some of the best pitcher eras & pitchers parks & never got lower than a 2.28, where Clemens did it twice. Once in a hitter's park (Fenway), the other during an offensive explosion. In 1997 the league averaged 5 runs per game, and Clemens' ERA is 2.05!

In 1990 Clemens had 2 games where he gave up 4 or more Earned Runs. Find me a year where Ryan has anywhere near that level of domination:

ANA
'72 9 times
'73 11 times
'74 12 times
'77 9 times
HOU
'83 7 times
'91 6 times

I mean it's no contest. Ryan was never dominating over a whole season. The reason he never won a Cy Young is the same reason he never won an ERA title: he was too inconsistant from one start to the next.

Mike
p.s. I think I've spoken enough on this topic. I don't think I'm going to change anyone's opinion, nor do I think anyone is going to change mine. For the record I'm not a Ryan-hater or anything like that. Actually I was a huge fan of his back in the 80s when things like Strat-O-Matic, and MicroLeague Baseball were out. He was a great pitcher for those leagues. I was always disappointed to read his boxscores & see those bad 3IP 5ER 7BB games. I remember the day he kicked Ventura's ass. I remember him striking out Rickey Henderson for his 7th no-no. I have more fond memories of Nolan Ryan than Clemens. I just happen to think Clemens is a better pitcher & I happen to enjoy sports debates.  

[Gantry]

MicroLeague baseball!  I used to love that game back when I was a kid, though I can't remember what system I had it on.  I think the Commodore 64...  Favorite team was the 69 Mets, Ron Svboda was the shit...

In our later years (high school) we started playing Tony Larussa baseball rather heavily.  That game was a stat paradise, we used to draft all-time teams and enter in all the stats.  It was all about drafting Ty Cobb with the first pick and loading up on old-time pitchers who had a great year - Ed Walsh, Addie Joss were the big ones...

[mheath22]

can you give me the keyboard shortcuts to play rbi rom?

i need stuff like how to advance a runner, etc.....

[Gantry]

Depends on the emulator, but the left CTRL and ALT keys are what work for FCE ultra.  Be sure to hit "F3" when playing in a window because the ALT key will select a menu item...

If you need any more info, start your own topic with a followup question.  I already hijacked this thread with my microleague talk and now we're really veering off!

PS - Welcome

[ericdavisfan]

It has to be Clemens' finest season, as it was the one where he won the MVP award.  If it is argued that it doesn't matter, then the whole argument that Clemens' Cy Young Awards give him the advantage over Ryan is out the window.  If Clemens' had anywhere from 2-4 better seasons than the one when he won MVP and Cy Young, then he should have won the MVP in those years as well...hands down especially since they were better seasons as you argued.  In 97 and 98, Clemens was far more valuable to his team in Toronto than he was to the 86 team in Boston.  

Clemens had a supporting cast that included Bruce Hurst (who was an all-star that year if memory serves), Jim Rice (also an all-star that year), Dwight Evans, and Wade Boggs (who hit .363 that year and made the all-star team as well), and don't forget that Don Baylor knocked 31 homers that year.

Clemens' two years in Toronto gave him Juan Guzman, Pat Hentgen, Benito Santiago, Ed Sprague, a very young Shawn Green and Jose Cruz Jr. and very old Joe Carter and Ruben Sierra (these are the best names I could find!  And let's not forget the memorable return of Dave Steib AND Tony Fernandez in 1998!  Jose Canseco and Shawn Green were productive in 98, but outside of Clemens, they had no one.  Wouldn't he have been more valuable to those two teams than the one in Boston?

Granted, Toronto finished last in 1997, but a respectable 3rd in 98 behind that dominant Yankees team and the Red Sox.  Could he not have been the MVP that year if it was one of his 2 finest seasons EVER?