New "Glitch"

[Big Apple RBI Champ]

Bases loaded one out.  Pop up foul territory outside third.  Runner from third tags.  Runner from second runs toward third (does not tag up).  Third baseman makes the catch and starts running toward third.  Guy from third touches home.  Third baseman throws to second, doubling off the runner who had broken to third.  

They counted the run.  Clearly the run should not count according to baseball rules, as it's a force, right?

[85_royals]

correct, the runner at second is a force and the run shouldn't count

sounds similar to the Merkle boner back in the day

[dkshaft]

That is technically not a glitch. That follows the rules of baseball. As long as the runner from third is breaking from the bag, after the catch in foul territory is made, he may score the run.

Had the third baseman caught the ball, and then thrown to second base before the runner from third reached home, then it would have been a double play and the run would not have counted.

[GDavis]

No, its a force out if someone leaves the base with out tagging.  I'm pretty sure the run shouldn't count.

[Gwynn3k]

it is a force out however, as the noted earlier... the programmers of rbi failed to realize that a force out can be made at 1st, 2nd and third. unfortunately, they allow runs to score if the force out a first is eliminated.  i.e. if there are guys on 1st and 3rd and two outs... the ball is poped up to shallow right.  the ball drops in but the runner at first didnt move up immediately.  the runner from third goes home, stands on the base and as soon as the runner going to first hits the base, rbi programmers designed it so the run is awarded... regardless of the fact that a force out was made at second base... just one of the few glitches that make rbi what it is ...   so to clarify, the run shouldnt have counted but in rbi world, it does.

[dkshaft]

It is a force play situation, however, when the third baseman catches the pop fly in foul territory, it also becomes a tag-up situation for the offense.

Once the ball is caught on the fly, the runner on third base can tag up, and score, as long as he is on the bag when the fly is caught.

When the fly is caught, there are only 2 outs in the inning.

And according to Ex-Big Apples account, the runner scores at home, before the third out is made -- the third out being when the third baseman throws out the runner who failed to tag up at second.

It is irrelevant what the runner at second does, as long as the runner at third base tags up after the catch is made.

So, I believe the run does actually count.

[Gwynn3k]

actually dk,  as long as a force out is made to end an inning, it doesnt matter whether the out is recorded before or after the runner touches the plate.  

[85_royals]

quite a debate goin' on here

I'm pretty certain that according to MLB rules the run doesn't count

according to RBI rules the run does count

[Big Apple RBI Champ]

I'm glad I could spark such a debate.  I would bet my left nut that the run should not score.  I will confirm.  Good example about the ball dropping in shallow right.

[GDavis]

If you lose the bet, please donate your nut to John Kruk.

[ultimate7]

This was never resolved, for some reason I think shaft might be right about this one.  I don't think the force for leaving 2nd early counts the same as a standard force out and the run counts if he touches the plate before the throw to 2nd.

[Stock]

I believe this to be correct.

[nomaaa]

i'm with shaft on this.

consider this scenario: 1 out. bases loaded.
-the batter hits a line drive in the left-center gap, which is caught by a diving center fielder.
-the runner on third held up to tag and breaks for home. the runner on second also holds, but breaks early for third.
-the runner from third scores, and the runner from second is standing up into third.
-the second baseman communicates to the cut to hit second, who then appeals the umpire for the runner breaking early.
-the umpire was actually paying attention and calls out the runner from second to end the inning.

i would argue that in no circumstance (outside of the successful appeal taking place before the runner crosses home) would the scored run come off the board for the team at-bat.

[nomaaa]

a wiki search yielded this:

Contrary to popular belief, an appeal out is not a force out unless it is regarding a missed force base. For example, if a runner from third base tags up and scores, but a runner from second base leaves too early, failing to tag up, and then is put out on the appeal, the run counts if it was scored before the appeal by the fielders.

[ultimate7]

Bunch of morans on this site in 2002