Mark McGwire and the 2007 HOF

[RedBarron]

The more I think about it, the less confident I am about McGwire and the HOF.

Steroids aside, the dude had 1626 hits.  I can't freakin' believe that.  To put it in perspective, Dawson had over 1100 more hits.

McGwire hit .263

He drove in only 1414 runs.


Outside of his 583 homers (which is an incredible accomplishment), he didn't do a whole lot.

Based on the way the voters tend to go, I see Mac getting in, but not in his first time or two.

[Nacho]

I'd say he should get in because of his 70 HR year (as well as several of his other monster years), though one can also point out that Maris didn't get in despite his record - a record that stood for an awfully long time (a helluva lot longer than McGwire's).  As a biased Cards fan, I'd vote him in.  I think the steroids may keep him out for a while, though.  Ripken and Gwynn are in.  I wouldn't necessarily say that Gwynn is a lock, but he and Ripken will probably be the class of 2007, and maybe some others.

[fightonusc]

How is Gwynn not a lock? I don't get this.

- 3,141 hits (18th All-Time)
- .338 career BA (20th All-Time)
- 15 time All-Star
- Led league in BA eight times
- 319 career steals
- Five time Gold Glove winner

In short, if Wade Boggs was a first-ballot HoF, then Tony Gwynn DEFINATELY is.

[Bonny]

Gwynn is more of a lock than Ripken.

[Stock]

IMO:

Gwynn, Ripken, and Mac all get in (in that order of votes from most to least).

In Mac's deffense, he never tested positive for steroid use and there is no legal evidence that was using steroids.

Another interesting stat.  The one thing that would keep him out is his lack of at-bats (due to a career with a nagging back injury).  But shit, Puckett played in 4 fewer seasons and in 94 fewer games.
His most impressive stat to me is, he has more HRs/AB (9.4%) than anyone ever to play the game.  That is more than 10% better than the Babe's.

[Attezz]

But Babe Ruth also had a career .342 average, and, ya know, played in HUGE ballparks.

[Stock]

But Babe Ruth also had a career .342 average, and, ya know, played in HUGE ballparks.

I was not saying (by any means at all) that Mac was better than the babe.  I wasn't even talking about batting average.
Just pointing out the fact that a home run in almost 10% of his at bats is pretty freaking impressive over a carreer.  Only compared to Babe Ruth since he is 2nd ranked all time in THAT stat.

[japetus462]

I think McGwire will go in on the first ballot, although not as overwhelmingly as he would have if the whole roid issue never was brought into the spotlight.

I know it sounds bad, but he was never "caught". It doesn't make it right, but I think he got out of baseball at the right time. Palimero on the other hand...was caught..and might have problems getting into the HOF.

[RedBarron]

His deal with congress will kill him.  I've heard lots of reporters (mostly on XM) say they don't want to vote "yes" until all the steroid info is out there.  If that's the case, Big Mac doesnt have much of a hope.

If I had a vote, I'd probably vote "yes" for Big Mac.

583 homers is insane.   


I'm still shocked that he had only 1600 hits.    Shit, better than 1 out of every 3 of his hits went over the damned fence!

[japetus462]

Yeah, the HR ratio is insane...a great example...his 2000 season...


236 At Bats...72 Hits...32 HR's

Must have been some good "juice" flowing. 

[Attezz]

For what it's worth, in 2001 there were .125 home runs per hit throughout the entire MLB.

[Dryden]

Gwynn gets in over Ripken.  There were a lot of sportswriters who felt that Ripken hurt his team by making the streak a bigger deal than winning games.

I wouldn't be one bit surprised if McGwire doesn't even get 50% of the vote on his first ballot.  It might even be way, way lower.

He doesn't deserve to get in just because of the HR - look at his combined HR, BB, and OPS totals.  Other than the relative lack of batting average, the guy was a super monster at the plate - he did more than just hit home runs.

[RedBarron]

he hit singles, too.


Hey, good to have you back, sir dryden!

[Nacho]

Okay, Gwynn is a lock.  I'd definitely vote for him.  He is one of my favorite players of the 1990s.  I love contact guys who don't hit homeruns, and he basically personifies that type of player.

[Gantry]

I love contact guys who don't hit homeruns, and he basically personifies that type of player.  In other words, I love Sallys...

[BeeJay]

I'd like to choke McGwire with all the memorabilia I collected in 1998.  He and his alter ego, Sammy Sosa, fooled everyone into believing a great thing was happening for baseball.  Not only is he a cheater, but he's a liar who can't even stand up for himself.  He also decided to announce his retirement to ESPN before telling anyone in St. Louis, including the Cardinals organization.  What a fucking waste of space.  I hope he never makes the Hall of Fame.

[Bonny]

I'd like to choke McGwire with all the memorabilia I collected in 1998.  He and his alter ego, Sammy Sosa, fooled everyone into believing a great thing was happening for baseball.  Not only is he a cheater, but he's a liar who can't even stand up for himself.  He also decided to announce his retirement to ESPN before telling anyone in St. Louis, including the Cardinals organization.  What a fucking waste of space.  I hope he never makes the Hall of Fame.

word

1998-The Joke's on you America

[Stock]

I am happy for the summer of roids (1998).
I like 70+ home run seasons.

Then again, that is why I like str8 pitch.

I think Canseco should make the hall since, no-one would have broken Maris' record w/o him.
BTW, Maris and Mantle used roids in the summer of '61. 

[capt_taco]

McGwire won't get in on the first ballot, anyhow, because all the sportswriters hate him because of the steroids thing, and that's who votes on the Hall of Fame for the first 15 years. I'm a sportswriter, and I hate him because of the steroids thing too. Seems like even the great 'Potatoes' thinks Big Mac was up to something, based on what he said to the Associated Press in the middle of last year:

"Somebody definitely is guilty of taking steroids. You can't be breaking records hitting 200 home runs in three or four seasons," Reggie Jackson said a few months ago. "The greatest hitters in the history of the game didn't do that."

(note: link to that story is http://www.thehomerunguys.com/AP_Articles/If_Roger_Maris_had_an_asterisk.htm. Thoguh if you just type in "reggie jackson" mcgwire steroids in a search engine, you'll get a lot of interesting stuff too.)

They'll probably turn him down the first time just to send a message, then vote him in the next time baseball has a "dry year" for HOFers like this one. But anyway, if alcoholics, womanizers and wife-beaters make it in (Puckett, Boggs, Hack Wilson), why not McGwire? He'll make it.

But if McGwire makes it, why not Pete Rose? The guy just had a gambling problem, is all. Feh, I see all kinds of debates coming up about this shit next year.

[Stock]

But if McGwire makes it, why not Pete Rose? The guy just had a gambling problem, is all. Feh, I see all kinds of debates coming up about this shit next year.

This is how I would rationalize it.
Pete Rose was suspended for gambling at a time when this was a VERY well defined policy in baseball.
Mac "supposedly" (simply because he was never proven to use them) used steroids at a time when MLB had a very vague drug policy, where nothing was clearly defined.
The thing is, sportswriters probably won't care abot the legality or "proven" portion of things.  They will make up their own mind.