RBIers that were better real life players than we realized

[Shooty]

Yeah.  How Trammell is in the Hall, and Lou not is fucking baffling.  They were essentially the same player.  They should have went in together.

[TempoGL]

Yeah.  How Trammell is in the Hall, and Lou not is fucking baffling.  They were essentially the same player.  They should have went in together.

Now imagine Lou Whittaker is white...

[Gantry]

Yup

[Shooty]

Lol.  Didn't even notice I wrote that before.

[Shooty]

At least I'm consistent.

[Gantry]

121K posts for me, almost all of which are the same three statements/opinions

[ultimate7]

I'll keep this going while I have some time.  Bobby Grich's turn, arguably better than Whitaker, in my last Bill James book from about 20 years ago, he had Grich 1 spot ahead of Whitaker (I think 12 and 13 at the time).

71 WAR and he did that in a bit more than 13 full seasons.  Unappreciated in his own era, though he was a 6 time all-star, he never finished top 7 in MVP voting.  In the 1981 strike shortened season head lead the AL in SLG and OPS+.  Crazy for a 2B and still finished 14th in MVP voting behind 2 RP and Steve McCatty (who I'd never heard of).  Ironically Rickey Henderson and Dwight Evans finished 2-3 in the voting and basically tied for highest WAR but finished behind Rollie Fingers who did have a damn good season.

Back to Grich, he had 5 straight 6+ WAR years 1972-76, unfortunately playing with the Orioles after their WS years. While he only hit .300 once from 1972-83 he had .375 OBP and 129 OPS+, extraordinary numbers for a 2B in that ERA.  He probably would have about 10 Silver Slugger award had they started the award in 1970 instead of 1980.

His final 3 seasons 1984-86 he played about 2 full seasons worth, I am guessing injuries setting in, still had OBP of .355 and OPS+ of 110 retiring after the infamous 1986 season.

[ultimate7]

Dwight Evans led the AL in Walks 3 times, twice led in OPS, and 3 times was over .400 OBP. Consistently very good from age 22 to age 37, in addition to his strong offensive numbers, he won 8 gold gloves.  3 times he was top 5 in MVP voting.  Career WAR of 67 despite negative career dWAR (not sure how that happens with 8 gold gloves)

[BeefMaster]

Career WAR of 67 despite negative career dWAR (not sure how that happens with 8 gold gloves)

We discussed his negative dWAR a bit on the last page of this thread. Some of it is just that corner outfielders get a big penalty to dWAR immediately just for the position they play. Some of it also might be that the eye test just isn't as good for outfield defense as it is for infield defense - a big arm, which is always impressive to Gold Glover voters, is not nearly as valuable as even a small improvement in range, because the arm simply doesn't get used that much (there's value in scaring guys away from running, but still not as much as turning doubles into outs by catching them). Because there are so few potential outfield defensive plays in every game, it's hard to really tell how much range a guy has (nearly all his actual value!) without aggregating a lot of games' worth of chances to see how many he gets to.

I think Kirby Puckett is another guy for whom Baseball-Reference's WAR doesn't love his defense despite a lot of Gold Gloves - he had a great arm and made spectacular plays (partially because he could rob homers over the Metrodome's 8' centerfield wall) but he didn't actually make as many normal outs in the field as you would have expected from a fielder with his reputation.

[ultimate7]

I figured his arm likely factored into the GGs, but certainly wouldn't add as much value as covering more ground.

[ultimate7]

Jose Cruz is someone I had in mind when I stared this thread.  I missed the prime of his career as I'm sure most of us did. He had 54 Career WAR as a late bloomer (50 WAR from age 27 on).

He played a lot of his career in the Astrodome which made his raw numbers look relatively mild, but his first 12 years in Houston (1975-86 age 27-38) he had a 127 OPS+.  Like some others mentioned in this thread, he had a good walk rate and had a .362 OBP in that timeframe.

Only a 2-time all-star, like related to his Astrodome numbers, he did finish 3rd in MVP voting in 1980, though it was from his best years 1976-78 were all better offensively and 1983-84 (both top8 MVP voting years) were his 2 best WAR years each at 6+. In the 9 seasons from 76-84 he was only sub 4 WAR for 2 seasons (but he would have been there in 1981 without the strike).

He was an old man (38) on the 86 team, yet still a key piece on that team.  In the heart breaking 1980 NLCS against the Phillies, he was Intentionally walked 4 times and had a .609 OBP in the series and a .93 WPA, meaning he basically contributed a win in the 5 games series.

[BeefMaster]

Wow... I had no idea Cruz was that good.

[TempoGL]

Wow... I had no idea Cruz liked to "Cruuuuuuuuuz" through the Whataburger Drive Thru when he's in a hurry

[ultimate7]

I'm going to keep going, despite my plan to space these out.  Next up is the first pitcher.

Rick Reuschel, a player I grew up watching on the Cubs, but also late in his career.  He won 214 games and had 69.5 WAR, arguable HOF numbers, though I never thought he was at that level and he'll never get in.

Big Daddy was a 3-time all-star and twice finished 3rd in Cy Young voting.  He won 20 games in 1977 led the league in CG and SHO (12/4) in 1987 at age 38, he was an all-star in 1989 at age 40 when he went 17-8 after going 19-11 the previous year.  Never huge numbers but generally a low HR, low BB pitcher twice posting ERA+ of over 150, though often around 120.  For you grid players, he did hit 2,015 strikeouts.

Depsite his size he was a good athlete, he won 2 Gold Gloves and was a solid hitting pitcher with 4 HR and 4 3B in his career.

[fknmclane]

This is a great thread. Thank you.

Also had no idea jose Cruz could really play.

[Brookensrules!]

Big Daddy was great, consistent too I believe.  Very underrated. 

[ultimate7]

Next up:  Chet Lemon

Chet had a solid 15-year career with 55 WAR.  In his 7 seasons prime, 1978-1984 he was an all-star 3 times and had 135 OPS+ over that span with .375 OBP.  He continued putting up solid seasons playing an elite CF (9th in Career Range Factor for CF, 3 times top 10 dWAR though no Gold Gloves) where he played through 1987 until he became a DH and par-time player his last 2 years 89-90.

[ultimate7]

Arcade Player from just before our time:  Vada Pinson

In Vada's 1st 10 full seasons (1959-68) he had 1855 hits(including 335 2B, 185 HR, and 96 3B) with 4 seasons over 200 hits, and an OPS+ of 119 and 54 Career WAR.  He was a gold glove winning CF but was no longer with Cincy by the Big Red Machine days of the mid-70s.  After leaving the Reds he had a few more decent seasons, but started to drop off after age 33 and only got to 2757 career hits, he also had over 300 career SB.  He was 3rd in NL MVP voting in 1961 when he was on his only pennant winning team, but struggle in the '61 series.  Not a HOF but certainly had that trajectory for his first decade.

[ultimate7]

Another Arcade player:  Cesar Cedeno

Much like Jose Cruz, lost a lot of raw numbers due to his time in the Astrodome.  He had 53 career WAR and was a 4 time all-star.  1972-73 seasons were both MVP level seasons, 157 OPS+ hitting .320 each season and 47 HR over the 2 years.  He also won 5 straight gold gloves in CF 1972-76 and had 550 career SB.  8 seasons at 120+ OPS and another 3 at 110+ pretty solid for a CF.

[Shooty]

Another Arcade player:  Cesar Cedeno

Much like Jose Cruz, lost a lot of raw numbers due to his time in the Astrodome.  He had 53 career WAR and was a 4 time all-star.  1972-73 seasons were both MVP level seasons, 157 OPS+ hitting .320 each season and 47 HR over the 2 years.  He also won 5 straight gold gloves in CF 1972-76 and had 550 career SB.  8 seasons at 120+ OPS and another 3 at 110+ pretty solid for a CF.

Plus he led the league in manslaughters during that period.