Intentional Drop

[russellcox]

For those of you in the COTUT, what do you think about disallowing the intentional drop?  For those of you unfamiliar w/ it, the intentional drop (runners on only) is where you allow the ball to drop right before your position player (on a pop-up) and then quickly throw the ball to the appropriate base to get a double play or, quite possibly, a triple play.  I know this can't really be monitored during the tourney, but I think the infield fly rule should definitely be a rule (mutual agreement between players), but the intentional drop is foolish.  Furthermore, we know there is the occasional 'blunder' on a pop-up or fly ball...this should just be played out as is.

[TempoGL]

I surely agree, I think the intentional drop should be banned.  I would also be a proponent of not doing the vile "first and third basestealing" trick.

[russellcox]

I have to disagree on the first and third base stealing 'trick'...If your technique and expertise is good enough, you should know how to not let this happen.  

[Gwynn3k]

First and third defense is part of the game...if you havent figured out how to stop baserunners from running wild than you probably have no chance in the tourny...  intentionally dropping the ball is one thing that should not be allowed seeing as how the programmers omitted the infield fly rule.

[HoJoFan]

i have to disagree.  the intentional drop is part of the game, if you are so unfortunate as to hit an infield fly with runners on, TOO BAD.  personally, i think the infield fly rule is a bad rule in real baseball, too, how come you're allowed to turn two on a ground ball, but not on a shitty pop up, but i suppose that's another debate for a different forum.  see you at the tourney!

[russellcox]

Exactly right, Gwynn.  If you don't know how to stop the double steal, you're in for a quick outskie in the tourney...Anyhoo, lotsa luck on getting a runner to 3rd against me.  Russell Cox is coming straight with a few no-no's and shutout ball in the tourney.

[russellcox]

Ahh, good ol' Gantry, I've heard a lot about you...the West Suburban Chicago Boilermaker.  On to your reply...
Refresher: the infield fly rule says that, if there are runners on 1st and 2nd base (at a minimum) and less than 2 out and the batter pops up to the infield, the batter is automatically and instantly out and the runners can stay right where they are. (They may try to advance at their own risk, but if you think it through, you'll see they'd have to be crazy to try.)

The underlying reason for the rule is that the fielding team would have no trouble converting the pop-up into a double play by letting it fall and throwing to 3rd and 2nd.

Allowing the intentional drop is as absurd as is having no outfield fence or allowing balks to happen (no balks in Ribbie though).
The infield fly is critical. It stops defensive players from dropping pop flies in order to turn an easy double play. With no infield fly, the runners are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If there is no infield fly rule, the runners must wait to see if the ball is dropped in order to advance, and they would be easily doubled off. Or in the alternative, the infielder could catch the ball then double off the advancing runners. It puts two outs in the discretion of the infielder, which would be completely stupid and unfair. The situation doesn't arise that much anyways.
Let's examine some situations:

1. Suppose you know the fielder is going to catch the ball. Then, the runners will just stay on their bases. Result: 1 out.
2. Suppose you know the fielder is going to drop the ball. Then, everybody will run to the next base (at least). Result: nobody out.

So that leaves the situation where nobody knows if the fielder is going to let the ball drop. Yes, if all the runners stay put, the fielder will let the ball bounce (hopefully not too high!) and two well-executed throws will force out two runners. Yes, if any of the runners takes off for the next base the fielder will catch the ball and double him up.

But, what if the runners use discretion? What if they hang close enough to their respective bases to avoid getting doubled-up? Can the fielder always guarantee a double play by letting the ball drop?  It doesn't matter.  As in Life/Baseball/Ribbie there are rules.  The intentional drop, without question, is preposterous.

[TempoGL]

well in defense of "if you can't stop first and third, you have no chance" - the reason I cannot stop it is because it was banned in all NES baseball games by my friends and I since around 1988 - you'd have trouble with something you hadn't seen in 14 years, too!

[SmokedUBad13]

This is a very serious and delicate issue that I originally brought up to Russellcox a few days ago.  Since then, he has "gone off" on the intentional drop (and with well supported reason I must add).  However, I also agree with HoJoFan.  It's simply a part of RBI.

Whether or not the intentional drop is allowed in real baseball, it is allowed in RBI without penalty.  The following are the current reasons as to why the intentional drop is allowed in the COTUT at this point in time.

1.  It's a part of the game.  Let's face it right now.  RBI is not perfect.  Through the wall homers, mis-called foul balls, unpreventable bops, bases not being covered, and the ball being thrown into the stands.  Just a few of the many glitches and programming errors in RBI.  And of course, added to this list is the intentional drop.  The COTUT is not out to change the game.  This is the biggest defender of the intentional drop in our tournament.  We don't want to, nor can we (successfully) change the way the game is made/played.

2.  Prohibiting the intentional drop provides added judgement to the supervisors of the tournament.  When is the drop intentional or unintentional?  The supervisor is the one who would have to make that call.  And that would be no easy call for anybody.  Errors do occur and mistakes do happen.  It shouldn't be on the supervisor to decide what is an error or intentional.  That's just way too difficult to call.

Therefore, the added difficulty of the supervisors and the fact that we aren't out to change the game are the two biggest defenders of the intentional drop in the COTUT.

To be fair though, we will be sending out an e-mail over the next couple of days to all participants in the COTUT.  This e-mail will involve a poll as to whether the intentional drop should be allowed or prohibited.  If there is an overwhelming response that it should be prohibited, then we will be more than happy to outlaw the intentional drop.

SmokedUBad
www.dee-nee.com/rbi/mbeales - The Official R.B.I. Baseball COTUT

[Ozzy364]

I for one feel the intentional drop should be allowed.  If RBI allows the intentional drop then the COTUT should allow the intentional drop. and anyways both players can take advantage of the infield fly so no one has an unfair advantage by allowing the infield fly so the infield fly SHOULD BE ALLOWED.

Also,  the first and third base stealing MUST be allowed.  If your good enough. then you won't let people steal.  and if you can't pick people off then your just not good enough for RBI.

[DXXPAC321]

I personally believe that the intentional drop should stay.  I am aware that it is a rule in Major League Baseball and I personally am in favor of it in those games.  But I see way too many problems happening if we make this a rule.  If a person drops it, and continues to go through with a double play because they honestly forget and a run scores out of it, what do we do as the supervisors of the COTUT.  Is that worthy of a game forfeit?  You are also asking a supervisor to make a judgement call.  This could win or lose a game, I don't think the game should be decided by what a supervisor would do.  Now if people agree before hand not to do it to each other, that is fine, but the supervisors of the tournament will not enforce it.  This is quite a debate and is a flaw in RBI.  This would be a lot easier if the game would call an infield fly rule itself.

DXXPAC321
www.dee-nee.com/rbi/mbeales - The Official R.B.I. Baseball COTUT

[Gantry]

<<< Ahh, good ol' Gantry, I've heard a lot about you...the West Suburban Chicago Boilermaker.  On to your reply... >>>

Not sure who you were talking to Russel (hojofan?) but I've yet to chime in on this issue...

I can see the problems involved with interpreting the dropped double-play.  That being said, I will never use the dropped double-play as an advantage.  In fact, I only take one out on a BOPed fly ball as well.  I just think the infield fly rule should be enforced, part of the game or not...

If people do it to me, so be it.  But I'm not taking two on shallow fly balls, BOP or otherwise...

[russellcox]

My apologies to you, Gantry...Yer name pops up so many times in the forum so it's embedded in my brain.  I should have never stooped so low to call you a 'Boilermaker'. Quite frankly, yer one of my heros.  For all I know, you may be a living saint.
Anyhoo, nice reply and sorry for the blunder.

[Gantry]

Ain't no thang Russell...  All good discussion is welcome and never fear to call me out strictly on my lofty status (in this little universe anyway)...

[Big Hath]

Have you given thought to the intentional "bop".  I have played with this rule before.  Basically the intentional drop is against the rules, but if the defensive player can pull off the intentional "bop" (ie. throwing at the exact time the ball would be caught) then they have a shot at turning the double.

It sort of combines the two views.  Intentional drops are outlawed, but if the defensive player is skilled enough, he could possibly turn two.  It keeps everyone on their toes.

[GDavis]

Hold on! you can force bop?!?!?  I'm gonna try this technique the second i get home.

Also, my stance on this is that you cannot legislate the intentional drop rule, but i do think it is a matter of honor among serious rbi'ers that you don't intentionally drop the ball to turn the deuce.

[SmokedUBad13]

GDavis, I agree with you 100%.  It's just impossible to legislate fairly because in the end it's a judgment call that would come from the supervisor.  I would recommend that both players honestly agree that they won't pull the intentional drop before the series if they have a problem with it.

Big Hath, I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.  Could you possibly be more specific?

SmokedUBad
www.dee-nee.com/rbi/mbeales - The Official R.B.I. Baseball COTUT

[SmokedUBad13]

The e-mail for the vote on the intentional drop was sent to all COTUT players 24 hours ago.  Since that time we have received a grand total of 23 votes.  14 votes have been in favor of allowing the intentional drop while 9 have been in favor of prohibiting the intentional drop.

Jeff and I decided that a 2/3 majority vote should be required in order to amend the rules and regulations of the COTUT to prohibit the intentional drop.  This means that more than 12 votes in favor of allowing the ID would mathematically make a 2/3 majority impossible for those in favor of prohibiting the intentional drop (since all 36 players were polled).  Hence, the vote is techinically over since we already have 14 votes in favor of allowing the ID.  Therefore, the intentional drop will be allowed in the Second Biannual R.B.I. Baseball COTUT.

I will keep the poll open until midnight Wednesday (giving everybody more than 3 days to cast their vote).  I will then post the official results of the vote here and will send out an e-mail to all players letting them know of the final numbers regarding the intentional drop vote.

SmokedUBad
www.dee-nee.com/rbi/mbeales - The Official R.B.I. Baseball COTUT

[Gwynn3k]

i second what the big ball of fire is saying...  intentional drop shouldnt even be an issue... it is absurd that you guys are going to play a tournament without the infield fly rule...  whether self-imposed or not...    

[ericdavisfan]

All I have to say is that the intentional drop is something that my little brother would do in an ill-fated attempt to beat me in a game of RBI.  Those who have to rely on the intentional drop for a cheap dp should have to suffer the same fate as my little bro did.......WEDGIE!!!