In the words of tony bruno "THIS IS A NATIONAL OUTRAGE"...Bert Blyleven is out

[sucka free]

I am Furious.

Okay Fellow RBIers I am at a complete loss ove Bert Blyleven getting denied yet again for getting into the hall.  Here is just a few stats that make should make him an easy choice.  I just can't beleive it.
 
*Won 287 games
*Career ERA was 3.31
*pitched 4970 innings
*3701 strikeouts

That should be enough right there but there's more, he is....

3rd all-time in strikeouts
22nd all-time in victories
9th all time in shutouts
8th all-time in starts
13th all-time in innings pitched

But wait....there is still more

 Career Tidbits...
 
 Miscellaneous All – Time Rankings: 35th in strikeouts per game (6.70), 62nd  in games and 89th in complete games.

Had seventeen 10-plus win seasons including 10 consecutive from 1970-79...had ten 15-plus win seasons including 5 consecutive from 1971-75.

Had eight 200-plus strikeout seasons including 6 consecutive from 1971-76.

Of his 250 losses, seventy-four were decided by one run and forty-one were decided by two runs.

Had two 10-game win-streaks (1971-72 & 1989).

Had three career 11.0 inning performances.

Had ten consecutive complete games, June 6-July 24, 1985.

Opponents batted .247 during career.

Had a no-hitter on September 22, 1977 vs. California and threw 5 one-hitters, 9 two-hitters and 12 three-hitters.

Had fifty-one 10-plus strikeout games including a career-high 15 strikeout performance on August 1, 1986 vs. Oakland.

Became 20-game winner in 1973 at age 22, the 13th youngest pitcher in modern league history.

Made major league debut in 1970 at the age of 19, became the 25th teenager to win as many as 10 games in a major league season and was named American League Rookie Pitcher of the Year by The Sporting News.

Led the American League in shutouts three times (1973, '85 & '89),
innings pitched twice (1985 &'86), and games started (1985), complete games (1985) and strikeouts (1985) once.

Name American League "Comeback Player of the Year" by The Sporting News in 1989.

Twins All –Time leader in complete games (141), shutouts (29) and strikeouts (2,035).  


I was a little pissed when hegot dissed again yesterday!!!!

[ericdavisfan]

I voted for him on my ballot, but unfortunately mine doesn't count.  Andre Dawson, Don Mattingly, Jim Rice, and Bert Blyleven would ALL be in!  Plus, the guy had a great Chris Berman nickname...Bert "Be Home" Blyleven!

[vgp100]

When I think hall of famer, I think superstar. Eddie Murray and Gary Carter never were that as I saw it. Dale Murphy was probably the only superstar on that ballot. Maybe Sandberg. Stats can be misleading. Murphy and Sandberg were on some pretty bad teams. I always thought those guys were studs and the others were "solid players". Does anyone else agree with me? Was anyone ever really worried when Eddie Murray came to bat? I wasn't.

[ericdavisfan]

3,000 hits are automatic for Hall entry.

500 homers are automatic for Hall entry.

Murray had both.  He wasn't a superstar for 2 main reasons.  1) he played in small market Baltimore for the majority of his career and they already had their superstar (Cal Ripken)  2) he didn't interact with the media, which made him seem like a prick.

I am sure that Eddie Murray was feared by opposing pitching.  He got lots of hits, hit for power, and was a switch hitter!

[sucka free]

500 HR are no longer an automatic bid.  Murray is probably the last guy who can get away with it considering the huge volume of HR's being hit and the huge number of players approaching 500 hr.  The bar has been raised for HR but 3000 hits is still an automatic bid

[vgp100]

I think Murray wasn't a superstar because he never dominated the game.

[ericdavisfan]

While I respect both opinions of vgp and sucka, I have to agree to disagree.  With respect to Murray not being more of a star...look at Derek Jeter.  He is in NY, the largest of all markets and is considered a superstar.  However, if you put his stats on Baltimore or Minnesota or any other small market team, he's just as underrated as Miguel Tejada (who has better stats than Jeter).  Murray suffered the same fate.  His numbers were between good and great for many, many years, but he was flying under the radar quite a bit.

As far as the 500 homer mark, I think it will still be a guaranteed pass for awhile for this reason, it shows consistency.  Brady Anderson proved that anyone can hit 50+ homers in a season.  However, hitting 500 in a career means that you had power for the duration of your career.  I do agree that it doesn't mean as much now with the inflated power stats, but 500 homers is still a lofty goal for most major leaguers.

3,000 and 500 should still be a guaranteed pass along with 300 wins

[sucka free]

EDFAN,

      Here is why 500 hr will no longer be an automatic pass.  Simply put, its not that impressive of a mark as it once was.  Although it is still alot of bombs, it is MUCH MUCH easier to achieve.   Here's proof...

*Of all the 17 players who have hit 500 hr or more, 15 have started their carreer  BEFORE 1986.  Only McGwire and Bonds have hit 500 after starting past 1986.  1986 is a benchmark year when MLB offenses started to go through the roof.  Here is a list of players that will most likely hit 500 hr before the end of their careers....

Name/age/HR
Alex Rodriguez (26) 298
Manny Ramirez (30) 310
Mo Vaughn (34) 325
Jim Thome (31) 334
Larry Walker (35) 335
Gary Sheffield (33) 340
Mike Piazza (33) 347
Frank Thomas (34) 376
Jeff Bagwell (34) 380
Juan Gonzalez (32) 405
Ken Griffey Jr. (32) 468
Fred McGriff (38) 478
Rafael Palmeiro (37) 490
Sammy Sosa (33) 499

There will be some guys on this list that won't reach 500 hr or more due to retirement, injury, or crack.  But it is very reasonable to assume that most, if not all, will eventually reach 500.   But for argument's sake lets say only half of this list make (and clearly more than half will defintily make it).  That gives us 8 new 500hr members.  15 of the 25 starteed their careers between 1900 and 1986 and 10 of the 25 who started aftrer 1986.
With the advent of the HR explosion 500hr is definitly not as statistically significant as it once was.  This is not debatable considering the rate at which modern players achieve that number.  Sports writers who vote for the hall of fame will undoubtly look at the overall career before giving  a FIRST BALLOT induction.  500hr will always give you admittance to the hall, BUT Eddie Murray is the last 500hr player who will be given an automatic FIRST BALLOT pass, which is the highest honor the hall can give.
3000 still remains as an automatic pass.

[jcbball86]

well the next couple years are only going to get harder for people like sandburg, dawson, rice, etc.  as some of you might of read on mlb.com, guys like boggs, mcguire, molitor, dennis eckersley, ripken, gwynn, and rickey henderson all in the next 5-10 years.  i think most if not all of those guys will make it sooner or later.  ripken is probably guaranteed his first ballot with over 3000 hits, 500 hrs, and that long game streak, plus he probably has a lot of fans on the BBWAA.
i also found interesting that pete rose got 18 write in votes (same as last year), which is more than 13 of the nominees and 12 of them combined. anyway, i hope sandburg and dawson make it next year.
go cubs

[ericdavisfan]

I'll agree with you there sucka.  500 is going to become more and more common, which means it's less impressive.  I also agree that it won't mean a 1st ballot entry in the future, but that anyone who gets 500 homers will eventually get in.  Nice research by the way

[sucka free]

Absoltley right!  Eventually you'll get in with 500.  Here's a list of who I think is a 1st ballot playing right now or not yet voted on...

Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Greg Maddux
Tom Glavine
Sammy Sosa
Rickey Henderson
Cal Ripken
Mark McGwire
Tony Gywnn

...i probably missed a few.  What do you guys think about Griffey Jr. as a 1st ballot right now?

[ericdavisfan]

Paul Molitor should be 1st ballot...next year I think, and as far as Griffey is concerned, if he had retired after his last year in Seattle, he'd have gone 1st ballot, but right now everybody only remembers the injured, whiny, no producing Junior of the Reds (I hate being a Reds fan right now!)  I think your list is pretty comprehensive, except Glavine will have to have a few more solid years to be a 1st ballot man.

[jcbball86]

i dont think griffey will be a first ballot at all because he probably wont have any more good years in his career, it was all in the past.  he might of gotten 50 or whatever homeruns in a season and is the only person to ever hit the warehouse at camden yards, but he will definitely not be first ballot.

[Vitb6]

I agree with your list, Sucka, except for Glavine.  No way is that guy a 1st ballot.  He'll be lucky to make the Hall at all.  Once again, he is very good but never dominating.  He benefited from being a #3 pitcher on a dominating team behind Maddux/Smoltz and thus racked up a lot of wins.  I think he is around 220 or so.  However, you left off A-Rod.  When it is all said and done I think A-Rod will argueably be the best player EVER.  IMO Mays holds that title now,  however if A-Rod keeps stealing bases he may take hold of that dubious honor.  Not to mention he will smash the all-time HR record before his career is done.  Probably take it away from Sammy Sosa at that time.

But to get back to the Hall debate.  I've already mentioned that you either are a Famer of you aren't.  Why do you need more than one time to be inducted.  In addition, why was Ozzie Smith a first ballot hall of fame inductee??  PLEASE, tell me why?  He is the best defensive SS ever....yes.  But the rest of his game was brutal (except for his SB's).  A career .262 hitter, .337 OBP, .328 SLG.  He never won an MVP, never led the league in SB's, actually never led the league in anything except Sac flies ('78 & '80), spectacular plays and flips.  How does he make the Hall (1st ballot) and not Ryno???  Because Ozzie was a better interview?  Ryno was the best defensive AND offensive 2B player ever!!  What else did he have to do?  If you had to start a team now and could pick Ozzie OR Ryno in their prime, who would you take?  Not even a tough choice.  That is why people get frustrated with the votes.  I mean, 7 dickheads wrote-in Darryl Kile this year!!!!!  The writers know shit and until they don't get to vote, this entire process will be convoluted.

[ericdavisfan]

Don't fool yourself into thinking that Sammy Sosa is going to break any home run records.  His light has burned brightly, but his peak has come and gone.  Sammy showed his true colors at the end of this season.  He cared so much about hitting #500, that he choked for the last week or two of the season.  I think it goes without saying that Sammy will get to 600, but I think he'll wash out or be busted for steroids (don't EVEN argue that he doesn't use!) before he challenges Hank (or Barry)

[Gantry]

I agree with most of what you said Jason, but a couple points:

except for Glavine.  No way is that guy a 1st ballot.  He'll be lucky to make the Hall at all.

Now I officially don't understand the voting process, but Glavine will be in the HOF.  I'm not the biggest Glavine fan out there, but he more than merely a 3rd fiddle.   Definitely better than Smoltz over a career.  He has two Cy Youngs, 8-time All-Star, 6 top3 Cy Young finishes and a World Series MVP, which is huge.  If he gets to 300 wins (at 243 now), he's a shoo-in...

And Sandberg was not the best offensive 2B ever, Rogers Hornsby has him whooped there...

[sucka free]

Vit,

     Good A-rod call....he's on an unbelievable pace to shatter a lot of important records.  Hopefully he won't pull a griffey.

    You might be right about Glavine.   He may need a couple more solid seasons with the Mets.  However, 300 wins IS automatic first ballot status.  But, he dosen't stack up to several pitchers of his era (maddox, clemens, johnson, pedro) in terms of dominance.  And his postseason numbers aren't a bright spot either.  So two or three more good seasons before I'll say he is a for sure 1st balloter

   Your take on Sandberg is off the mark.  He is not even close to numerous second basemen as far as an offensive threat.  Alomar, Kent, hornsby, Lajoie, Morgan to name a few.  And defensively, the list is pretty much the same.  Ryno was a cool cat, but definitly not the best ever.

    Here is a case for Ozzie smith to be a 1st ballot hall of famer.

*  He changed the way shortstop played.  He was the lawarence taylor of his position.  Just like LT revolutioned the outside linebacker position with great speed and power, Ozzie changed the way shortsstop approached ground balls to the hole.  He was the first shortstop to utlize the jump throw going to your right (i.e. Jeter's jump throw).  He totally changed the way shortsstop played the feild.  This was a MAJOR contribution to the game.  He is the bar in which ALL shortstops of the modern era are measured against in terms of defense!

*  He was easily the greatest defensive shortstop EVER.  Most say that he was the greatest defensive player EVER.  That is a big accolade.  Of all the baseball players who have played MLB, Ozzie is considered the very best defensive player.  And he played for 19 seasons!

*He won gold gloves from 1980 to 1992!  13 consecutive seasons.  A MLB record!

*set a record of shortstop assists in 1980 with 621

*all-time assist leader at shortstop with 8,375 assists

*all time leader at turning double plays with 1,590

*second amoung shortstops on gmaes played 2,511

*second amoung shortstops in feilding percentage with .978

* Named to 15 All-Star teams

*Was one of the greatest ambassadors to the game of baseball.  Everyone loved this guy and he gave back a tremendous amount to the game and to the communittee.

*1995 recipient of the Roberto Clemente award, the humanitarian award of Major League Baseball

*1994 recipient of the Branch Rickey Award, honoring Major League Baseball's outstanding individual who personifies "Service Above Self."

*1992 he was named the St. Louis Man of the Year, an award previously given only to business and civic leaders

*1983 he was given the NAACP Image Award for Sportsmanship, Humanitarianism, and Community Activities

*1986 was named to the Father of the Year Honors Group by the National Fathers Day Committee.

The Wizard proved that you can be deserving of 1st ballot status with your glove.  Look at Eddie Murray, great offensive numbers but he was a DH alot of the time and not a defensive standout.  The wizard is the exact opposite, BUT offense and great defensive at shortstop, in my mind can be comparable.

[ericdavisfan]

I totally agree with your take on Ozzie Smith, sucka!

A good way to think of his defense as more of a statistic:

     Ozzie probably drove in 40 - 50 runs per year

     With his outstanding defense (getting to balls that nobody else could) he probably prevented 40 - 50 (or more) runs per year.

This is comparable to Ozzie getting 80 - 100 rbi every year of his career.  

When you think of it in those terms, he truely IS the greatest shortstop ever!

[jcbball86]

wow, that is some dedicated research.  im convinced

[Vitb6]

Quick note on Glavine.  If he doesn't hit 300 wins he isn't in the hall.  He was on the best team of the 90's and a #3 pitcher in the rotation.  Was Glavine better than Smoltz, probably, but he was behind him in the rotation.  Therefore he benefited in facing the opposing teams #3 starter most of the time allowing him to rack up wins.  The rest of Glavine's #'s really don't stand out.  He wasn't dominating nor fearsome.  It seems that the standards for the Hall are higher for pitchers.  You need to be a dominating pitcher to really get consideration adn Glavine doesn't fit that bill.  With that said, if he does hit 300 wins, he's in.  

For you to say that Sosa will slow down anytime soon is Ludacris.  So what he's stuck on 499.  Bonds was too.  He was anxious and therefore not performing correctly.  He has averaged 58 HR's the past 5 seasons.  No player in history can claim that feat.  Sosa will break Aaron's record before he is 40!  Bonds surely won't.  With that said A-Rod will break Sosa's HR record in due time.


Hornsby's #'s are pretty good, we'll kind of ignore him.  And Nap played in the 1800's impossible to compare.  But Joe Morgan?  Sandberg beat him in every offensive category, per season across the board except for SB's.  Not to mention Sandberg played for some truly horrible teams and Morgan played for the Big Red Machine.  Sandbergs offensive #'s are even more special because he batted 2nd in a terrible lineup.  And he also won more gold gloves (9-5).

Jeff Kent is good but let's remember the juiced ball and steroids.  You don't need to hit 60 HR's to be on 'roids.  Not to mention he is hitting in the middle of an unbelieveable lineup with Barry Bonds.  And Kent can't hold Ryno's water bottle when it comes to defense.

As far as Ozzie goes, I've already said that he is the best SS ever, no need to repeat that.  But there are some point I'd like to highlight.

"He was the lawarence taylor of his position.  Just like LT revolutioned the outside linebacker position with great speed and power"
--Really?  I didn't know that LT had to run fly patterns.  See, that is what makes baseball so great.  You have to have that special balance of offense AND defense.  Clearly Ozzie was special defensively, but someone forgot to teach him how to swing some wood.

"Ozzie changed the way shortsstop approached ground balls to the hole.  He was the first shortstop to utlize the jump throw going to your right (i.e. Jeter's jump throw).  He totally changed the way shortsstop played the feild."
--Once again, really?  Ozzie did NOT 'invent' the jump throw.  Ozzie was just able to do it better and with more consistancy.  Players before him tried to do it but couldn't OR did them inconsistantly, due to their lack of ability.  Ozzie had an uncanny ability and he capitalized on it.  For example, Ken Caminiti can make that throw from his knees from third and Benito Santiago used to be able to make the throw from his knees from behind the plate.  They did NOT 'invent' those plays.  They are just able to perform them consistantly due to their defensive prowess.  I'm sure everyone would like to play third like Ken, they just can't.

I found the following kind of comical that you would even include this in your arguement:

*Was one of the greatest ambassadors to the game of baseball.  Everyone loved this guy and he gave back a tremendous amount to the game and to the communittee.

*1995 recipient of the Roberto Clemente award, the humanitarian award of Major League Baseball

*1994 recipient of the Branch Rickey Award, honoring Major League Baseball's outstanding individual who personifies "Service Above Self."

*1992 he was named the St. Louis Man of the Year, an award previously given only to business and civic leaders

*1983 he was given the NAACP Image Award for Sportsmanship, Humanitarianism, and Community Activities

*1986 was named to the Father of the Year Honors Group by the National Fathers Day Committee.

I'm glad the city of St. Louis named him man of the year and that Ozzie was a good father.  What matters is what he did on the field.  The media and public loved Ozzie.  So Ryno didn't adore the media and wasn't a good story.  So he gets penalized because of his lack of candor?  Sandberg was a more complete ball player than Ozzie was.  If defense was all that counts then you would agree with Mark Grace being in the Hall...let alone a 1st ballot entry.  He is the best 1B of his generation and argueably ever. Not to mention his offensive numbers are better than Ozzie's.  Of how about Omar Vizquel.  Is he going to be in the Hall?  He is the best SS of his generation.  Actually, Vizquel has a better fielding % than Ozzie (.984 to .978).  He also has comparable amount of put outs per season, less errors per season, more double plays per season.  Ozzie does have more assists however.  Then can one say that playing SS today is harder then in the 70's and 80's?  One can put up a good arguement.  The ball is juiced, the parks are smaller, the mound is lower, players are stronger and faster, more runs are scored, the bats are better, players have better conditioning secondary to creatine etc...  Due to those facts, the ball is hit harder making routine plays more difficult.  Players are faster forcing Vizquel to get rid of the ball faster.  There are more runs scored, therefore more runners on base, thus forcing Vizquel to play at DP depth instead of his normal position making routine plays harder or impossible.  Batting averages are up increasing the chances of error.  If Vizquel can compare this well to Ozzie then maybe he will be in the Hall.  But we all know that he won't be.  Let alone a 1st time entry!

I'm not saying that Ozzie doesn't deserve to be in the Hall.  He does.  But not first ballot.  In contrast Ryno did deserve first ballot for his incredible balance between offense and defense.  He won 9 gold gloves and his offensive #'s were way before his time and batting #2 on pathetic teams make it all the more mind boggling.

BTW, I'm not a Ryno fan or even a Cub fan.  Gantry/Lips/Mark/Potsie can back me up on that.  I'm a baseball fan and it gets me REALLY hot when people make (Puckett) or don't make (Ryno) the Hall for political reasons.  If Ryno was friendlier to the media he would have made it.  It's a good thing Nick doesn't know that people are comparing Ryno to Ozzie...he would go over your houses and steal your RBI's, among other things.

I would love to see Jose Canseco prove that point.  The media hates that guy.  Hates him!  But he is also very close to 500 HR's.  I know he's retired and all but would love to see him come back and get 500.  No way would he be first ballot HOF, because the writers hate him, even though 500 HR's and 300 wins is the threshold.  If it wasn't for his injury's he could have been a GREAT one.