2010 HoF Ballot

[ryno]

thanks to Chris Berman

[Gantry]

not gonna rehash this argument....but Ozzie Smith has no business in the HOF.  And Larkin was VASTLY superior to him offensively, and an equal defensively. 

Nobody is calling Reds out on this?

[Barton]

Nope, not since it's true.

[JoeDirt]

I don't believe it to be true.  Although Vizquel is probably better than the Wiz.

[Attezz]

Punto's still better than the whole lot.

[edfan]

not gonna rehash this argument....but Ozzie Smith has no business in the HOF.  And Larkin was VASTLY superior to him offensively, and an equal defensively. 

Nobody is calling Reds out on this?

He may not have been equal defensively, but if Smith was better it was not by that much. Plus, as Reds said, Larkin was way better offensively.  All around, Larkin was a much better shortstop. 

Ozzie Smith was a great defender, but that was it as far as baseball goes.  Dave Concepcion was definitely equal to Smith defensively (and similar offensively), but he played in a much less televised era and did not do backflips.

Omar Vizquel is probably superior to all of these guys defensively and probably somewhere between Smith and Larkin offensively.  The fact that he has no chance to go into the HOF will be a travesty of Blyleven proportions

[Nacho]

I think Vizquel has a shot at the hall.  I also think that Smith doesn't get enough credit for his offense.  He was a great base-stealer and made good contact.

[edfan]

I think Vizquel has a shot at the hall.  I also think that Smith doesn't get enough credit for his offense.  He was a great base-stealer and made good contact.

How much credit do you give a guy who is a lifetime .262 hitter?  If him being in the HOF relied at all on his offense, then it is a no-go.  He was a decent base-stealer, though

[edfan]

Also...you wanna talk injustice...here is the statline for Ozzie Smith and Dave Concepcion.  Can you tell which is which?


G      PA     AB    R    H    2B  3B   HR  RBI  SB  CS   BB  SO    BA  OBP   SLG OPS
2488 9640 8723 993 2326 389 48 101 950 321 109 736 1186 .267 .322 .357 .679

2573 10778 9396 1257 2460 402 69 28 793 580 148 1072 589 .262 .337 .328 .666

[edfan]

Here are the defensive stats for Concepcion and Smith too


   Ch    PO    A     E    DP    Fld%

12905 4249 8375 281 1590 .978

11595 4245 7024 326 1390 .972


Basically, that averages out to a little over 2 errors more per season for Concepcion.  So, because Ozzie Smith made 2 fewer errors per season, he is a worthy HOF candidate?

[Nacho]

So Ozzie had 250 more steals, 300 more runs, walked more, struck out half as many times, had a higher on base percentage, turned more double plays, made two less errors/year, and (I don't know how true this one is) made more amazing plays at short, and you think the two are comparable?

I say this as a Cards fan who doesn't remember much of Ozzie (especially not in his prime), so I'm biased even if I am too young to see him much.  Obviously, Ozzie isn't there because of his offense.  I was just pointing out that he doesn't get any credit for being able to hold a bat, but he held his own and was a solid #2 hitter for a long time.

[edfan]

So Ozzie had 250 more steals, 300 more runs, walked more, struck out half as many times, had a higher on base percentage, turned more double plays, made two less errors/year, and (I don't know how true this one is) made more amazing plays at short, and you think the two are comparable?

I say this as a Cards fan who doesn't remember much of Ozzie (especially not in his prime), so I'm biased even if I am too young to see him much.  Obviously, Ozzie isn't there because of his offense.  I was just pointing out that he doesn't get any credit for being able to hold a bat, but he held his own and was a solid #2 hitter for a long time.

Concepcion played on the Big Red Machine.  He and Joe Morgan would likely have a lot more steals if they, but you don't always run when Johnny Bench and George Foster are at the plate.  The errors thing was just simple math.  They both had 19 year careers and Concepcion had 45 more errors over the duration of his career which works out to about 2.3 something errors per season.  You did leave out the fact that Concepcion hit over 100 homers which probably accounts for his higher strikeout totals and fewer walks.  The premium for that team was not small ball, though.  It was for the Cardinals as we should all know as RBI fans.  If Concepcion played for a team like the Cardinals (little power, lots of speed) he probably would have been a guy who looked to draw a walk, steal 2nd, maybe 3rd, then a hit/sacrifice home for the run

[Nacho]

Ozzie also had 1300 more assists, which probably demonstrates that he had a LOT more range.

[edfan]

That may be true.  I saw a lot of Ozzie in his prime, and nothing that I am saying is meant to take away from how great he was on defense.  I saw very little of Concepcion because I only got Cubs or Braves games growing up. 

I guess my basic point is that while Ozzie is great and revered, Concepcion is mostly forgotten and that is sad considering that Dave Concepcion was a very similar player

[BeefMaster]

Here are the defensive stats for Concepcion and Smith too


   Ch    PO    A     E    DP    Fld%
12905 4249 8375 281 1590 .978

11595 4245 7024 326 1390 .972

Basically, that averages out to a little over 2 errors more per season for Concepcion.  So, because Ozzie Smith made 2 fewer errors per season, he is a worthy HOF candidate?

You're reading the wrong column to make your judgment - fielding percentage is generally overrated unless a guy is an Offerman-esque butcher in the field.  If you want to know why Ozzie was a better defender, look at the first column, total chances - Ozzie fielded over 1300 more balls in only about 100 more games.  Not only did he make fewer errors, but he did so while covering a far greater range.

[edfan]

Here are the defensive stats for Concepcion and Smith too


  Ch    PO    A     E    DP    Fld%
12905 4249 8375 281 1590 .978

11595 4245 7024 326 1390 .972

Basically, that averages out to a little over 2 errors more per season for Concepcion.  So, because Ozzie Smith made 2 fewer errors per season, he is a worthy HOF candidate?

You're reading the wrong column to make your judgment - fielding percentage is generally overrated unless a guy is an Offerman-esque butcher in the field.  If you want to know why Ozzie was a better defender, look at the first column, total chances - Ozzie fielded over 1300 more balls in only about 100 more games.  Not only did he make fewer errors, but he did so while covering a far greater range.

I messed up on Concepcion's statline.  He played the bulk of his games at SS, but the line that I copied and pasted included all of his stats from playing other positions.

Here are the corrected stat comparisons of just the two at SS:

   Ch    PO    A     E    DP    Fld%
12905 4249 8375 281 1590 .978

10575 3670 6594 311 1290 .971

Concepcion played 2178 games at SS while Smith played 2511.  Difference of about 330 games or so

So when you look at that, Concepcion averaged 4.8 chances per game to Ozzie's 5.1 per game.

Ozzie also had 3.3 assists per game, while Concepcion had 3.0.  While this could indicate that Ozzie has better range, it does show that on a per game average, Concepcion was statistically similar to Smith

[Nacho]

Here are the defensive stats for Concepcion and Smith too


   Ch    PO    A     E    DP    Fld%
12905 4249 8375 281 1590 .978

11595 4245 7024 326 1390 .972

Basically, that averages out to a little over 2 errors more per season for Concepcion.  So, because Ozzie Smith made 2 fewer errors per season, he is a worthy HOF candidate?

You're reading the wrong column to make your judgment - fielding percentage is generally overrated unless a guy is an Offerman-esque butcher in the field.  If you want to know why Ozzie was a better defender, look at the first column, total chances - Ozzie fielded over 1300 more balls in only about 100 more games.  Not only did he make fewer errors, but he did so while covering a far greater range.

Thanks for not reading my post, jerk...

[ultimate7]

Ozzie had about 50 chances more per season

[fathedX]

So, on average, Ozzie got to one more ball every three games that Concepcion didn't.  I would buy that.  There's more to it than that due to other factors, but for my limited mind, that works.

[edfan]

Just so it is clearly known:

Yes, I am trying to manipulate the statistics by dividing them into seasonal averages to make them fit my argument.  I have no idea if there is any relevance to them