Interesting finds on batting...

[Turd]

I had someone look at the power formula for me to determine a good level of power for high average, low power guys.  In the process, my RBI mind was subsequently blown by a find that some of you might have figured out on your own, but I only just learned of.

Here's the summarized techie transcript, followed by the translation.

Uses Power, Direction, Height and then using a huge amount of equations to get final numbers

Power is:
Batting Power - (Contact * x)
where x is 0 to 6 depending on where contact occurs

Height = Random Number between x00 and x3E with some adjustments

If you press nothing and value is less than x10 then add x18 to random
If you press DOWN and random is less than x10 then add x30 to random
If you press UP and random is less than x10 than add x10 to random

The higher the number the more the ball goes upward.

The translation:
Pressing DOWN while swinging makes it more a chance for popup or deep.
Pressing UP while swinging makes it more of a chance for line drive.

If you are trying for a home run or sacrifice fly then pressing down would be helpful.  If you're trying to get on-base, pressing up would be a better strategy.

Is this news? It was to me...I almost always hit nothing when I swing...

[BeefMaster]

This is indeed news, as far as I know - I don't know of anything that had ever substantiated the ability to affect vertical trajectory with your swing.  The effect has been observed before - Gantry has an entry in the glossary for "The Retreat", in which he moves back in the box while swinging and claims that it increases home run power - but I always had assumed it was just superstition, not an actual game mechanic.

This would probably be HUGE information for the guys at the COTUT... I wonder if the nationally-competitive guys like Riley and Beales are aware of (or at least suspect) that something like this exists.  I generally think of in-the-box movement as being mostly side-to-side to deal with pitch direction, and I don't know that a pull back or push forward at the same time is something one usually has time for.

[Turd]

I know, right? This blew my mind, and my b-hole.

[Turd]

Good call on the retreat, btw, I never thought of that, but now it makes sense.

Basically you're pressing what part of the ball you want to aim for...press up, you'll hit the top of the ball, shooting it downward...press down, bottom of ball, getting under it...

[BDawk]

I'd say it's huge.  25 years after the game was made, still figuring out stuff.  So maybe there's some science behind Gantry's "slide" technique.

[BeefMaster]

I had someone look at the power formula for me to determine a good level of power for high average, low power guys.

On a semi-related note, I have never really come up with a good solution for this - guys like Joe Mauer don't really translate well to RBI.  I usually give them a bit of a power boost from what their power numbers would generally call for, because a guy with 750 power just isn't that good no matter how low his contact rating is.

[Turd]

Beef, that's precisely what I'm trying to determine, and if it can't be done with numbers, then perhaps a hack can be written for high average weak power guys.

[BeefMaster]

I'm trying to figure out how you'd hack something like that, though... maybe some sort of attribute that leads to a specific hit type?  I'm thinking low liners - high enough to get over the infielders' heads but low enough that they'll land before the outfielders can get them.  It would provide single and gap power without leading to the homers that come with high power ratings.  Crafting specific outcomes like that seems like delving pretty deep into the hacks, though.

[Turd]

My idea was exactly that...a "weak power" attribute that let you give a guy a large power number but kill his HR chances...maybe something even along the lines of forcing an "UP" press for certain guys so that their homerun chances are lowered because that guy is always aiming for a ground ball/line drive.

[fathedX]

Holy hell, if this finding isn't enough to update the Dee-Nee front page, nothing is.  This seems like a big deal.  Somebody set up some testing, stat!

[fknmclane]

Pretty crazy news.  Nice work, turd.

Never been a fan of the retreat at all, feel like it fucks up the timing as I've forever been a top of the box guy.  This might call for a visit from Chubbs and a couple 12 18 packs.

[thalivest]

Nice work Turd. I tried it out, and it's not exact but there seems to be some truth to it. Only played 2 games, but it's not a guarantee, but seems to raise the liklihood of a ground/fly ball. One thing I detected is it seemed to be predicated on making solid or decent contact. That seemed to higher the chances. Sometimes I flied out holding up and grounded out holding down.

Maybe it's just me, and again it was only based on 2 games, and I don't know if it's all the way true, but there seems to be some truth to it.

Beef, you've seemd to play a lot of baseball games (from the 8 and 16 bit era) how do other games like WSB, Griffey, Sports Talk etc. rate and base contact?I'm interested on how singles/doubles hitters can be more effective. Only thing I can think of is 800-840 (approx. for RBI 3, maybe 815-820) with a low contact rating. So they can drive the ball, but don't have the power to go out consistently. For RBI 3, 815-840 is equivalent to players with 17/18-22 HR. So maybe you could go to 845-850 which would be 23/24 HR.

[ultimate7]

This is certainly news. 

Now can you see what happens to the error ratio when you press a button just before fielding?

[Turd]

Livest, this isn't just a theory. I had a friend debug the gMe and watch the batting algorithm. This is definitely happening.

As you said, it isn't a 100% given that a down will always pop up and up drives it down. It just INCREASES THR CHANCES.  The height and direction randomizer, power, and contact all play a factor.

[Turd]

Also, we've been chatting and testing for a number that gives hits but doesn't leave the yard a lot.

I'll let you all know the results when we're done.

Where is gantry? He should quit brushing his cats and post!

[Gantry]

The Retreat is verified, awesome work here

[Gantry]

One thing to consider though is that only happens if your "random" number is between 0&15, if it comes up between 16 & 53 it doesn't affect it.  So 25% of the time, the retreat helps.  The other 75% it does nothing

[BDawk]

I'd play the lottery if I had those odds

[BeefMaster]

Beef, you've seemd to play a lot of baseball games (from the 8 and 16 bit era) how do other games like WSB, Griffey, Sports Talk etc. rate and base contact?I'm interested on how singles/doubles hitters can be more effective. Only thing I can think of is 800-840 (approx. for RBI 3, maybe 815-820) with a low contact rating. So they can drive the ball, but don't have the power to go out consistently. For RBI 3, 815-840 is equivalent to players with 17/18-22 HR. So maybe you could go to 845-850 which would be 23/24 HR.

This I don't really know.  I've played a lot of other games from the 80s-90s (lots of Baseball Simulator 1.000, the first Griffey, Baseball Stars, Little League Baseball, and Bases Loaded 3, with a few attempts at Bo Jackson, Tecmo Super Baseball, Bases Loaded, Roger Clemens Baseball, and Hardball 3 on the PC), and I've never really figured out how the contact logic works for those.

RBI has had by far the most study put into the actual internals of the game... I don't know if any similar work has been done on any of the other ones.

[thalivest]

Livest, this isn't just a theory. I had a friend debug the gMe and watch the batting algorithm. This is definitely happening.

As you said, it isn't a 100% given that a down will always pop up and up drives it down. It just INCREASES THR CHANCES.  The height and direction randomizer, power, and contact all play a factor.

My bad, when I said theory, I didn't mean it as something that hasn't/hadn't been tested and/or proven verified. But there's truth like I said (though it was only based on 2 gms). It's not a guarantee, but it did increase the probability.

Beef, you've seemd to play a lot of baseball games (from the 8 and 16 bit era) how do other games like WSB, Griffey, Sports Talk etc. rate and base contact?I'm interested on how singles/doubles hitters can be more effective. Only thing I can think of is 800-840 (approx. for RBI 3, maybe 815-820) with a low contact rating. So they can drive the ball, but don't have the power to go out consistently. For RBI 3, 815-840 is equivalent to players with 17/18-22 HR. So maybe you could go to 845-850 which would be 23/24 HR.

This I don't really know.  I've played a lot of other games from the 80s-90s (lots of Baseball Simulator 1.000, the first Griffey, Baseball Stars, Little League Baseball, and Bases Loaded 3, with a few attempts at Bo Jackson, Tecmo Super Baseball, Bases Loaded, Roger Clemens Baseball, and Hardball 3 on the PC), and I've never really figured out how the contact logic works for those.

RBI has had by far the most study put into the actual internals of the game... I don't know if any similar work has been done on any of the other ones.

I was asking to see if there's a reference one could use then extrapolate and transfer. As far as RBI 3 anybody with under 800 power is all but useless, and that equates to any player with 16 HR or less. RBI is more power predicated so 800 pwr player will be a little more effective.

You mentioned Joe Mauer. If I was making him in RBI 3 I would make him anywhere from 815-830/835 with single digit. That would give him the same power as someone with 18-21 HR, see Will Clark/Dave Henderson. So he'll have pwr to drive the ball and with the low contact he can it consistently, but the 815-835 contact will keep him from going yard so often. That's my best guess.