RBIers that were better real life players than we realized

[ultimate7]

I don't know if we already have a thread like this but I figure we should start one.

First up:  Brian Downing

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/downibr01.shtml

Carrer OBP = .370 and his 51 WAR (53.8 Offensive WAR which is 147th best in MLB history) basically puts him on the border of a HOF

In his last 3 seasons (age 39-41) he basically got 2 full seasons of plate appearances with 41 HR and 53 2B.  .385 OPB and 138 OPS+ at f'ing age 39-41 not surprsingly just DH at that point.

Having that career he was 3 times top 10 in OBP in the AL, but only once an All-Star, he played in an era that did not value the base on balls.

I had no idea he was that valuable.

[Gantry]

Bobby Grich was pretty damn stellar for awhile wasn't he?  I never thought of him as anything but a replacement level player when I followed baseball.

[BeefMaster]

Bobby Grich was pretty damn stellar for awhile wasn't he?  I never thought of him as anything but a replacement level player when I followed baseball.

He's the one I was going to mention. FanGraphs has him at 69 WAR, 8th all time among second basemen, and significantly higher than Biggio, Alomar, and Sandberg (the closest behind him is fellow "should be a Hall of Famer" Lou Whitaker, although Grich amassed his WAR in almost 400 fewer games).

Grich is another guy who was really hurt by the pre-90s appreciation of batting average but not on-base percentage - he walked over 100 times in a couple seasons, and while he had an unspectacular batting average (.266 for his career) he had a really good .371 career OBP. His career OPS+ was 125, and by that stat, he was a below-average hitter just ONCE after his rookie year, and in that year his OPS+ was 98. In the strike-shortened year of '81, he led the league in homers, slugging, and OPS+. He also won four Gold Gloves, so it's not like he was just taking up space out in the field.

[Shooty]

Grich, DwEvans, and Randolph are guys with surprisingly high WARs.  They were all good for a long time and liked to take walks (which we didn't really give a shit about back then).

[Shooty]

Its kind of funny that Dwight Evans and Jim Rice were teammates for so long.  Evans has almost 20 more career WAR (67.2 vs 47.7) and Rice is in the HOF and Evans can't get a sniff of it. 

[fknmclane]

Its kind of funny that Dwight Evans and Jim Rice were teammates for so long.  Evans has almost 20 more career WAR (67.2 vs 47.7) and Rice is in the HOF and Evans can't get a sniff of it. 

KEANU WHOA

That's fucking insane. Didn't Dewey win an MVP and Rookie of the Year, too?

[fknmclane]

No, that's Fred Lynn. Don't mind me.

[TempoGL]

No, that's Fred Lynn. Don't mind me.

It was Fred Lynn.  Oops, sorry...

[BDawk]

I assumed Dwight's defense put him over the top.  He had a great arm so I figured his overall D was amazing.  Nope, he has a negative career DWar

[ultimate7]

Whitaker, Dewey, and Grich were all great and should be considered for the HOF.  I think Whitaker will eventually get in, not sure about the other two.

[Shooty]

Yeah.  How Trammell is in the HOF and Whitaker not makes zero sense.  They were pretty much exactly the same player.

[TempoGL]

Now imagine Lou Whittaker is white...

[BeefMaster]

I assumed Dwight's defense put him over the top.  He had a great arm so I figured his overall D was amazing.  Nope, he has a negative career DWar

Being a corner outfielder starts with you a negative dWAR right off the top just because it's one of the "easy" positions, and the fact that he only had -3.7 over 20 years in right field indicates that he was above-average defensively (especially early in his career).

For what it's worth, a great arm is really overrated in terms of actual defensive value - you save a whole lot more runs with great range, turning extra-base hits into outs, than you do by cutting down guys on the bases (or preventing them from advancing due to the threat of getting thrown out).

[Shooty]

Yeah.  Evans was a good defense outfielder.  Defensive WAR is really weird to figure out sometimes.

Evans had a 60.5 offensive WAR and a negative 3.7 defensive WAR.  But his total WAR was 67.2.  So in my mind this says the average right fielder during that time would have had a defensive WAR of negative 10.2.  So Evans was better than average defensively.   

[Brookensrules!]

Now imagine Lou Whittaker is white...

politics is too much for HOF.  Think about all the guys that should/shouldn't be in the HOF and it's not a few people. 

[GDavis]

Now imagine Lou Whittaker is white...

politics is too much for HOF.  Think about all the guys that should/shouldn't be in the HOF and it's not a few people.

Guys that should/shouldn't be in the HOF is everybody who ever existed

[ultimate7]

Now imagine Lou Whittaker is white...

politics is too much for HOF.  Think about all the guys that should/shouldn't be in the HOF and it's not a few people.

Guys that should/shouldn't be in the HOF is everybody who ever existed

Are you still thinking?

[TβG]

I don't know if we already have a thread like this but I figure we should start one.

First up:  Brian Downing

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/downibr01.shtml

Carrer OBP = .370 and his 51 WAR (53.8 Offensive WAR which is 147th best in MLB history) basically puts him on the border of a HOF

In his last 3 seasons (age 39-41) he basically got 2 full seasons of plate appearances with 41 HR and 53 2B.  .385 OPB and 138 OPS+ at f'ing age 39-41 not surprsingly just DH at that point.

Having that career he was 3 times top 10 in OBP in the AL, but only once an All-Star, he played in an era that did not value the base on balls.

I had no idea he was that valuable.

FINALLY!!!

Thank you, Ultimate. Downing was totally unappreciated in his time. Plus, he played catcher before moving to the outfield.

[fathedX]

And he had one of the earliest open batting stances I can remember.  Bodybuilder physique and aviator glasses, he always seemed like an oddball when I watched the California Angels on KTLA.  Dude could rake

[ultimate7]

I forgot I had started this thread. Next up Lou Whitaker, though he may not be quite as underrated as some of the others mentioned.  He is overshadowed by Trammell and other Tigers from that era for reasons.

Career WAR of 75 which is 84th all-time (tied with Johnny Bench) ahead of Trammell and many other HOFers. His 1981-1993 run of 13 straight seasons of 3.5+ WAR.  Consistently strong offensively at a position known for defense in that era.

And to compare him to my rooting interest of the same era, he was usually ahead of Ryno's in OPS and defense with not quite as much power.  He'd probably be in the HOF if he did backflips (that one is for Jim) or had a bigger personality.